[Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press release

Sina Bahram sbahram at nc.rr.com
Sun May 29 04:41:06 UTC 2011 

That's short sited because it implies that the accessibility is handled server side. This implies that one better hope they thought
of your accessibility, otherwise you are screwed.

That's the tradeoff. Apple sure thought of certain vision impaired users, and so for them, things work really well. good luck trying
to do anything passed that if you don't fall in that predetermined group. This is the antithesis to universal design.

Take care,
Sina


-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 11:37 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press release

If mathml does not render the math in an accessible manor without screen
access software then I don't see it as accessible.  It would be like saying
tall browsers are low vision compliant if you have a screen enlarger.  If
mathml is really going to be accessible then it should have streaming audio
that reads the math to you but again this is a dream world.  One in which I
can sit at anyones computer and use it.  Sort of like a Mac but on
stearoiods

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Sina Bahram
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 12:55 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press release

By the way, this is standards compliant. Ken mentioned standards, and yet
this entire conversation is about authors who use
standards like MathML for example.

It's like saying, why does jaws need to support html5 specific elements, if
everything is standards compliant then it will
automagically work. That makes no sense. The standards are there, affording
jaws and others a stable target to develop against and
clear guidelines to implement; however, they are not doing so.

Take care,
Sina




-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Neil Soiffer
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 1:07 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press release

There are definitely things that authors can do to improve access, and
Pearson has been a leader in the textbook field in producing accessible
materials.  I commend you/Pearson on providing long descriptions of graphs
and charts. Doing so greatly increases the readability/understandability of
math texts.  MathPlayer does nothing for those kinds of content, although I
suspect John Gardner might chime in about the importance of using SVG for
that kind of content.

Unfortunately, there is only so much you can do as an author to enhance
accessibility.  For example, do you have a way so that Nemeth code is
generated for expressions or some other math code for those outside the US?
What about navigation of the math?  If screen readers make the appropriate
calls to MathPlayer (in the future), then those other capabilities will be
present, and they will be present with no effort from the author.

Neil Soiffer
Senior Scientist
Design Science, Inc.
www.dessci.com
~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor ~

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Ken Perry <kperry at blinksoft.com> wrote:

> Well from talking to the Pearsons coders they are trying to make the
> subject
> matter accessible no matter the access difficulties. For example in the
> chapter I have in front of me right now if you go to a diagram that is a
> bar
> chart.  Or how about a parabola it has access in two ways one is a long
> desc
> like alt that works in any screen reader but another for a better
> description is you click on the picture and it brings up a full
description
> of the graph in question as if a person was describing it to you.  They
are
> using math player to read the functions and things and the test I took as
a
> sample was accessible whether I be totally blind, visually impaired, or a
> regular sighted user.  I just think if things are designed correctly it
> doesn't matter the access software.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 10:41 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics; patti at 4dewitt.com
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press release
>
> Maybe Neil will feel like explaining more, but the odds are that whatever
> GW
> Micro does will likely benefit Freedom Scientific.  I must say that I'm a
> little surprised that people would feel that Freedom Scientific was
wronged
> here when they chose to not put anything into this project and to sit back
> and benefit from the work of others.  I'm not sure there is any way to
> interpret math in a way that is so standard that screen readers won't have
> to do some work.  In addition, the model of how software is made
accessible
> is changing and screen readers are having to make some adjustments.  We
are
> very much moving away from MSAA toward UI Automation, and this does
require
> some effort on the part of screen readers.  Over time, there will be more
> standard ways of handling this, but it does worry me some that there seems
> to be a significant amount of work that screen readers have to do to make
> individual software accessible.  Time will tell how it all works out.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Fri, 27 May 2011 01:26:06 +0000, patti at 4dewitt.com wrote:
>
> >In addition, as a technology teacher of the blind in nj, most kids are
> >at the mercy of the commission or the schools for their technology.
> >They get them
> jaws most times.
> >Universal access is my dream. It should all be interconnected On the
> >other hand, Jaws users have a huge underground of script writers who
> >may already have solved my problem
>
> >Sent on the Sprint. Now Network from my BlackBerry.
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: "Ken Perry" <kperry at blinksoft.com>
> >Sender: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
> >Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 20:57:31
> >To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in
> >mathematics'<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> >Reply-To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> >       <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press
> >release
>
> >See this is where I have to ask.  If you use standards like html 5 and
> >make sure that things are more than just accessible to screen readers
> >it won't be hard for companies like FS to keep it accessible.  This
> >shouldn't be a war against companies it should be a war to make Math
> >accessible whether a person uses sight or sound or smell to read math.
> >If standards of the world are followed rather than making up a standard
> >just for the blind then it won't be an issue.
>
> >Ken
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
> >[mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Neil Soiffer
> >Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 4:13 PM
> >To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> >Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press
> >release
>
> >We are adding new functionality (eg, navigation for math and being able
> >to read math directly in a word doc without saving to a web page first).
> >Unless JAWS or other AT adds code to their product to take make the
> >appropriate calls to the new interfaces that get defined, it won't pick
> >up that new functionality.
>
> >Neil Soiffer
> >Senior Scientist
> >Design Science, Inc.
> >www.dessci.com
>
>
> >On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Patti Mitchell <patti at 4dewitt.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> Is Jaws using something else?
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
> >> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> >> On
> >> Behalf Of Neil Soiffer
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 3:08 PM
> >> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Somewhat positive yet disappointing press
> >> release
> >>
> >> We would like as many screen readers as possible to be part of this
> work.
> >> Freedom Scientific did not want to participate in the grant, GW Micro
> did.
> >> I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want math support
> >> in
> >your
> >> AT, you need to make it very clear to your AT vendor that if they
> >> don't support math well, you'll use a different product that does.
> >>
> >> Neil Soiffer
> >> Senior Scientist
> >> Design Science, Inc.
> >> www.dessci.com
> >> ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation
> >> Editor ~
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Jose Tamayo <jtblas at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > In the press release below, JAWS is not mentioned at all.  This is
> >> > such a significant press release yet a market player such as JAWS
> >> > is not even mentioned, any reason?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > http://www.dessci.com/en/company/press/releases/110524.htm
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > http://www.
> >> >
> >> > dessci.com/en/company/press/releases/110524.htm
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> > sci.com
> >> >
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