[Blindmath] MathJax Accessibility: math/STEM universal access/design

Thu Nov 10 04:57:36 UTC 2011

I’m in absolute agreement. Despite this being the message from DSI for
a long time, it’s obvious that it isn’t working well, and we need to
think different.

I’m trying to pursue a degree in the STEM field, specifically computer
science, and it’s been a huge challenge, especially when it comes to
STEM formulae and SVG. Challenges arise when reading, reviewing,
navigating, composing, editing, and for all this to work within the
college’s LMS/CMS, to be integrated, and to be a cohesive solution,
which allows for me to focus on the content, and not the accessibility
side of things. The amount of research, work, discussions, and more
work that’s required to even get a half-working solution, which is far
from complete, ideal, fragmented takes so much time to sort and does
not work. It’s not something a student should be trying to balance
with a full or more than full load of classes. It’s nearly impossible
to do so. I’ve come to the conclusion that I’ll have to bite the
bullet and learn LaTex.

While I do respect DSI work on MathPlayer, I don’t think it’s quite
there, not the answer, and doesn’t address the full scope of math/STEM
accessibility. Above and beyond the various glaring issues, one cannot
write/edit ones work in this environment. It’s quite unfortunate to
learn that there are no blind screen reader or braille users involved
in DSI MathPlayer design, development, or testing. The fact that there
are no blind people involved at all explains most of the issues.

MathType really doesn’t sound like it was intended to be used by blind
people, but for sighted people to create accessible math, which is the
case with many things when it comes to poorly and improperly done
accessibility. I really wonder how have we at all come to accept any
of this, between MathPlayer and MathType to be at all acceptable or
ideal?

I think that Design Science and Neil are wonderful, I appreciate all
the work they’ve done, but I think it’s quite a shame that things are
not better. I look forward to MathPlayer 3, better integration
(additional web browser support, Firefox), a revolution in STEM
accessibility, and Word support. It really does seem like LaTex, not
MathML is the best option for STEM accessibility.

MathML is in HTML5 and HTML5 features like SVG and MathML are carried
over to EPUB3. However, this doesn’t ensure accessibility, especially
given: there are no guidelines, standards, best practices, or anything
in anything that allows the MathML to be conveyed to an assistive
technology, such as a screen reader. Device developers cannot do
anything…well, they can all build their own accessibility API, but
this will result in more fragmentation, less accessibility, and we’ll
be locked into a specific option, such as iOS VoiceOver. I think that
there’s much more hope in Apple addressing this or making MathML
accessible than Amazon ever caring about accessibility. EPUB3 makes it
such that MathML will be conveyed directly, not through
images/graphics like EPUB2.2 and earlier. I think that the iPad has
lots of potential in revolutionizing STEM/math accessibility,
especially given it’s spatial structure, layout, and nature. One will
finally be able to explore, work with, and use formulae and SVG as
they were intended.

NVDA 2011.3, which is a beta 1 now, and willhave release candidate
soon has DSI MathPlayer support. This was based on me filing an issue
ticket and several discussions with James, VP and lead developer. I
wasn’t aware of LibLouis with MathML to Nemeth translation. NVAccess
is very interested, willing, and all for making STEM/math
accessibility happen, but needs funding. Several ideas have been
kicked around, but it’s about resources: developer, money, and time.
Will LibLouis braille support to MathPlayer require work from Design
Science or NVAccess? The ladder, NVAccess are excellent and wonderful
to work with.

I’m in full agreement with: “free and open source, high quality solution
that provide free and superior math access,”

Kevin

On 11/8/11, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Steve
> (the following are merely my thoughts, if some of them are inaccurate
> I'm free to be corrected)
>
> first the negatives:
> True, but this is also been the message from DSI for 5 or 8 years, and
> it hasn't worked either.
> I think there are very few blind people who pursue math or STEM
> subjects (well, I know this for a fact), if we further fragment this
> group by screen reader used, then expect them to try and figure out
> the MathType vs MathPlayer setup, understand the inherent issues with
> braille support and the interplay between the braille display, the
> screen reader vendor, the browser, and MathPlayer, and then give
> constructive feedback to screen reader vendors, I just don't think
> it'll ever happen, way too few users to have an impact, and most
> people either just learn LaTeX and get by with it .. because it is
> linear, it is supported by braille devices, you can use the same
> language for reading and writing math, you can use any text editor in
> theory.
> I, as a blind user, have major issues with not being able to even get
> to the MathPlayer menu in IE without using some Jaws cursor and
> routing keys. If this is an  application intended for me as a blind
> user, why do I need to go the extra mile to accessits menus, by all
> standards that would be defined as inaccessible. As far as I know,
> there are also no blind users involved with internal development or
> testing of MathPlayer,, though the blind community is willing, and
> working with Neil is always a pleasure.
> Of course once we have public releases of MathPlayer we, as a
> community, can help out, and I sure intend to do my best in that
> regard.
>
> The other issue is that the one source, core accessibility environment
> for creating accessible math is Microsoft Word with MathType, but
> accessing math in that environment itself is not even accessible to
> me. I have to choose between a variety of partial solutions to read
> the output, such as to emboss via other software (if I have an
> embosser), get MathPlayer feedback by exporting to IE and lose braille
> support but get voice reading (at least once I adjust the security
> options in IE and get it to work), or I can revert back to LaTeX so I
> can work within the document itself (toggle TeX).
> It's hard to sell a product that works if and only if (insert work
> arounds here to get things to work). Also, as a user, I feel a bit
> weird asking my screen reader vendor to make a product by some other
> company accessible.
> However technically valid the standard design science answer is, it is
> frustrating to get the "I know this doesn't work, talk to the other
> company and ask them to get our product to work" response all the
> time.
> Just try that if you had, say, a browser that didn't work, but you ask
> users who are unhappy with it to talk to Microsoft, because it's
> really their fault. It may technically be true, but the user stil
> feels short changed.
>
> Due to the reasons noted above, I don't think we'll ever see a
> significant influx of new users with the current situation. When math
> accessibility is this hard and this fragmented, there is no reason why
> we should see more students pursuing STeM subjects this year or next
> year, than we've seen in the last 5 years. Something has to change in
> order for them to come in and succeed.
>
>
> the good:
> Fortunately there are changes coming:
> What is happening that is positive?
> With the update to MathPlayer and its compatibility to all pages
> created with MathJax, the amount of material that it makes available
> in an accessible format has the potential to increase by hundreds or
> thousands of percentage points, bringing something truly new,
> innovative and impressive to the blind community interested in math.
> (build it and they will come, if you will).
> I am excited to see MathPlayer 3, and test it out with pages made by
> MathJax. If we can get it to work with all MathJax created pages, we
> truly have a game changer in terms of the amount of material available
> to users. This will increase math interest in the group, I believe.
> I also know that MathPlayer within Word should become accessible (at
> least according to the ETS grant that was posted on the DSI blog a few
> weeks back) though it is still a couple of years away, which is a very
> long time in the computer world. What is still missing from this
> picture is accessible MathType input, which I really think will
> impress, but, as far as I understand, that is not on the table. This
> means blind users will still have to learn LaTeX if they want to write
> math, and once they've learnt that, why not just use it for reading
> math as well, due to the advantages listed above and the difficulty of
> getting any meaningful refreshable braille in any other format.
>
> MathML is becoming a core technology in HTML5 (I believe the official
> "release" of HTML5 is scheduled for 2014or 2015, so it's still a few
> years away, but this time around there is a comprihensive set of
> browser compatibility tests, which should imply that browser support
> for MathML, given that they pass the HTML5 tests, will be more uniform
> and widespread. MathML is also a core technology of EPUB3, and
> hopefully that will convince device manufacturers such as Apple (iPad)
> and Amazon (Kindle) to stop relying on graphics for math and, instead,
> create client software for parsing MathML and generating the graphics
> themselves .. which incidentally makes the information available to
> software that wants to convert MathML into something else (sound,
> braille, anything really). Add to that on-going research into turning
> touch screens into braille input devices and braille or tactile
> feedback through touchscreens, that really has the possibility of
> revolutionizing math accessibility, by giving users an idea of the
> spatial layout of math for the first time, granted this is probably
> still a few years off at best.
>
> The other idea, which probably is not going to happen in the short
> term, is to utilize the open source resources out there. There is
> NVdA, which still does not work with MathPlayer (may be us users can
> push for it), there is LibLouis with MathML to Nemeth translation
> capabilities, that has to be integrated (again it seems like NVDA is a
> logical choice here, seeing as its braille support is built on
> LibLouis already).
> Given what I have read about how little it would take to add MP
> support to NVDA, and to add LibLouis braille support to MathPlayer, it
> seems these could be relatively small steps with relatively large
> payoffs (both of these things are mentioned in articles on
> www.access2science.com, though no technical details are given).
> Once you can point to a free and open source, high quality solution
> that provide free and superior math access, you really have something
> in hand to "bother" the screen reader vendors with, and NVDA can offer
> a unique functionality that will make it a clear choice over the
> traditional screen readers for many universities and other academic
> settings, which may improve their standing and their cashflow.
>
> What would, of course, be best, is if MathPlayer was open source, or
> we had a similar open source solution to push. With open source code,
> it's easier to get users involved, to get research and acaademic
> funding and support, and to migrate solutions for application or
> platform x to other areas. I think MathJax being open source was
> brilliant, and the benefits of it are becoming more and more obvious.
>
> Obviously there are downsides too. I have seen very badly supervised
> and executed open source projects that fizzled out completely, it
> really takes a good central planning and organization to make open
> source work, and a large enough community of testers and developers,
> and this might be difficult with mathematics. Though I would hope that
> university researchers and students could be involved .. after all
> there is a lot of people in computer science, engineering and math,
> that are looking for big projects for their degree completions. I
> think working around a commercial product to increase its user base is
> not something that you can easily do as an academic, or as part of an
> academic project, at least your funding resources will be severely
> limited. Working on an open source project however, such as how to
> best turn MathML into speech, definitely has the sound of a successful
> PHD project to it.
>
> I am not suggesting that this solution is even on the table, or that
> there aren't a myriad of arguments against this. Design Science owns
> MathPlayer, and they are, of course,  free to do whatever they want
> with it. Neil has worked hard on it, and really made a huge difference
> for anyone interested in math as a blind student. My posthere is
> simply to underline that it could be taken even further, not to
> criticize what has been done, because this product has revolutionized
> access to mathematics for blind students, no questions about that.
>
> I just really think it needs the leverage other open source
> developments, and that would be most easily done if it were open
> source itself.
> It would require smart and dedicated community of blind developers to
> help it along. I know I don't have the time, or very little time,
> though I would help as I could.
> I'd imagine the same applies to other people on this list.
>
> I hope that MathPlayer3 and the accessible MathPlayer Word integration
> will provide significant upgrades, and that hopefully NVDA integration
> can happen, and then we could see a connect between NVDA, MathPlayer
> and LibLouis to provide better braille support, both through
> refreshable braille, and through the Braille Blaster project for a
> free and open source embossing of mathematics.
> That would be the next step in the revolution, and would change this
> status quo, that really has gone on for too long.
> Cheers
> -B
>
> On 11/8/11, Noble,Stephen L. <steve.noble at louisville.edu> wrote:
>> Of course, one has to remember that the original concept behind MathPlayer
>> was to turn math into speech so that screen reader applications (like
>> JAWS)
>> could read the math. The only way to turn math symbols into speech is to
>> use
>> words to convey that information. The only way to provide any additional
>> layout or spatial information in speech is to use more words, for instance
>> to announce the column and row location of a data element in a table...but
>> again, all of that is done with words.
>>
>> Now, I will add that getting Nemeth support in refreshable braille out of
>> MathML content has been "potentially" possible for many years, but the
>> vendors who implement this technology have not bothered to invest the
>> development time into their applications. If you want to see this happen,
>> then lots of customers need to start complaining to places like Freedom
>> Scientific (just an example since I mentioned JAWS) and tell them this is
>> a
>> priority. Otherwise, we'll still be having this same discussion five years
>> from now.
>>
>> --Steve Noble
>> steve.noble at louisville.edu
>> 502-969-3088
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Kevin Chao
>> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 5:06 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] MathJax Accessibility: math/STEM universal
>> access/design
>>
>> Will MathPlayer 3 address the fact that all the math/STEM
>> symbols/operators
>> in 2.2 are converted into words, all spatial layout/structure/relations
>> not
>> being conveyed due to all information being converted into words, and
>> there
>> not being proper braille support (Nemeth)? Each and every one of these
>> three
>> key points are absolutely essential and critical to proper and truly
>> accessible math/STEM readable content.
>>
>> I think that the work that Design Science, MathPlayer has done is a great
>> start, but it doesn't provide a great experience, especially when it comes
>> to being able to have an overview, drill down, and navigate/review. Not to
>> also mention the inability to create/edit work in an integrated/imbedded
>> way, such as homework, notes, and exams within the same environment that
>> is
>> already being used by education or work, such as a LMS/CMS of some kind.
>> Also, the very restrictive system requirement of MathPlayer 2.2 plug-in
>> only
>> working with IE, what about Windows Firefox and Chrome or Mac Safari,
>> Webkit, Chrome, etc.? This is where I think it would be great if MathJax
>> has
>> a standard specifying accessibility, which would work across platforms and
>> browsers.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> On 11/6/11, Neil Soiffer <NeilS at dessci.com> wrote:
>>> MathJax works with MathPlayer to provide accessibility if you use IE.
>>> There are some issues with MathJax and MathPlayer 2 if people didn't
>>> configure their site to allow users to choose the renderer, but most
>>> of those have been resolved with MathPlayer 3 (which might be
>>> available next week).
>>>
>>> MathJax is a great solution which has already greatly increased the
>>> amount of math that is accessible on the web.  Design Science is one
>>> of the founding sponsers for MathJax work and we are working to make
>>> sure the math rendered by it is accessible.
>>>
>>>  Neil Soiffer
>>> Senior Scientist
>>> Design Science, Inc.
>>> www.dessci.com
>>> ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor
>>> ~
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Kevin Chao <kevinchao89 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> MathJax is an open source JavaScript display engine for mathematics
>>>> that works in all modern browsers.
>>>> No more setup for readers. No more browser plugins. No more font
>>>> installations... It just works.
>>>> Accept following sources:
>>>> LaTeX
>>>> MathML
>>>>
>>>> http://www.mathjax.org/
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, there's not an MathJax accessibility API, which web
>>>> browsers can use, which will allow assistive technologies, such as
>>>> screen readers to work with beautiful math in all browsers. As far as
>>>> I'm aware, there's no MathJax accessibility in Windows IE9/8, Chrome
>>>> 15-17, Firefox 4-10; Mac OS X Safari, Webkit, Lightning, and/or
>>>> Chrome; iOS 5 Safari; Android Mobile Accessibility Web browser or
>>>> Ideal Web Reader.
>>>>
>>>> MathJax has the potential to make math/STEM accessibility truly
>>>> universal and not speicific to MathML and IE8, MathPlayer 2.2, and
>>>> JAWS 12.
>>>>
>>>> It has the potential to completely revolutionize math/STEM
>>>> accessibility for all, but I would like to know what's the best
>>>> approach in MathJax including universal access/design, and it working
>>>> for all? Perhaps, it should be a community effort, where we all
>>>> contact MathJax, create a petition, or some other campaign effort?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Kevin
>>>>
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>>>
>>
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>
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