[Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices

Tue Nov 15 18:37:39 UTC 2011

that's what i meant to say.  smile.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Gardner" <john.gardner at orst.edu>
To: "'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'" 
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices


> Dick, I think this would be a poor choice.  Personally I believe that for
> anything at all complicated, most users will need to be able to navigate 
> by
> cells both horizontally and vertically.  An html table is ideal, because 
> one
> can do that with any screen reader.
>
> And those who want a text file can just copy that table and copty into
> notepad.  Presto, Ken has his wish.
> John
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:50 AM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>
> I am assuming that the blind student can scroll up and down through the
> rows using the up and down arrow keys, encountering only three values with
> each press of the arrow key.
>
> Another alternative would be to put all nine values for a 3x3 matrix on 
> the
> same line with some sort of delimiter to indicate that each group of 3
> values represents a row.
>
> However, there is a problem with this also. Despite the need to 
> accommodate
> blind students in the course, I must also make certain that I accommodate
> the needs of sighted students. Sighted students are accustomed to seeing
> matrices written in rows and columns and all of the textbooks present
> matrices in that format. I must use a format that works for both the blind
> students and the sighted students, which is one of the reasons that I like
> this approach. It should work for blind students and it looks nominally
> correct for sighted students. Not ideal for either but adequate for both.
>
> Dick Baldwin
>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Ken Perry <kperry at blinksoft.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The good part is if you have it in this kind of form and the student has
>> another form he or she likes better its not hard to reparse this.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:21 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>>
>> Great! This makes it work. Now when I tab into the first row of the
> matrix,
>> I hear three bar nine bar eight. Given an announcement that a matrix
>> follows, a blind student should be able to mentally separate the columns
>> and
>> the rows without having to space through the characters individually.
>>
>> This scheme, or something very similar is what I will probably use.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dick Baldwin
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Icewolf <icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello,
>> > I don't have my copy of NVDA up at the moment.  To change the
>> > punctuation
>> > level:
>> > 1.  From the desktop press NVDA(insert key) plus n.  This will get you
>> > into NVDA's settings.
>> > 2.  Arrow down to preferences, then arrow right into the menu.
>> > 3.  Arrow down till you hear, or see, the voice settings option and
>> > then press enter.
>> > 4.  Once in this dialog box tab around till you see or hear the
>> > punctuation option.  This will be a combo box.
>> > 5.  Arrow up and down through the choices.  I believe they are none,
>> > some, most, and all.
>> > 6.  Choose all then tab to ok and press enter.
>> > There might be a way to do this on the fly without having to go into
>> > the preferences menu, but I am still a novice at NVDA and don't know it
>> yet.
>> > Hope this helps,
>> > Greg W.
>> >
>> > Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day
>> > of all days.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 11/15/2011 9:47 AM, Richard Baldwin wrote:
>> >
>> >> Ken,
>> >>
>> >> You wrote: "Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?"
>> >>
>> >> I'm a novice at using NVDA.
>> >>
>> >> How do I make that setting?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Dick Baldwin
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>  Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?
>> >>>
>> >>> ken
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**
>> >>> nfbnet.org <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard
>> >>> Baldwin
>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:26 AM
>> >>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>>
>> >>> This approach works pretty well with NVDA as long as there is an
>> >>> announcement immediately before the matrix that a matrix follows.
>> >>> This is needed so the student will know to use the right and left
>> >>> arrow keys to step through the matrix elements. When the down arrow
>> >>> is used to enter the matrix, NVDA simply speaks 398 with no
>> >>> acknowledgement of the bars (or semicolons either);
>> >>>
>> >>> Dick Baldwin
>> >>>
>> >>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>>  wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>  I know everyone on here will cringe but in truth this is how I
>> >>> would
>> >>>> want it but again I like using just a text editor and this way
>> >>>> seems to work great with jaws for me. This is just a simple page
>> >>>> with a 3 by
>> >>>> 3 matrix.  It has the bars because<pre>  elements don't get
> converted.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> <html>
>> >>>> <body>
>> >>>>  <H1>A Matrix</h1>
>> >>>>  <pre>
>> >>>>  3 | 9 | 8
>> >>>>  4 | 6 | 5
>> >>>>  6 | 4 | 8
>> >>>>      </pre>
>> >>>> </body>
>> >>>> </html
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org
>> >>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:03 AM
>> >>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks Ken,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So far, that seems to be the most accessible option. I suppose I
>> >>>> could style the matrices as<pre>xx</pre>  and put them in XHTML
>> >>>> tables. That should make them accessible to a screen reader and
>> >>>> also make them look reasonable for the sighted students in the
>> >>>> course. Maybe there is a unicode character that could be used to
>> >>>> create the vertical bars that typically appear on printed matrices.
>> >>>> If so, I wonder how a screen reader would treat those characters.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Other suggestions are welcome.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks,
>> >>>> Dick Baldwin
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>> >>>>  wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  When I did my matrix class back in the early 90's I used a text
>> >>>>> editor and an old laptop calculator called Xplore.  The calculator
>> >>>>> still exists but the newest version is not that accessible. I
>> >>>>> would just type the matrix out in a text editor and space the
>> columns.
>> >>>>> That way when I  wanted two add two rows I would block one row and
>> >>>>> put it under the other and move things around.  I know that is not
>> >>>>> pretty but it gave me a good feel of how the sighted folks did it.
>> >>>>> I got to the point where I could do up to 2 4 by 4 matrixes in my
>> >>>>> head only writing down values as I multiplied them or if I was
>> >>>>> trying to solve them.  It would take a bit of work to get back to
>> >>>>> that point now but all I am saying is don't give up on the simple
>> >>>>> text editor  it sometimes is nice to be able to easily see all the
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> numbers in a row at a time.
>> >>>
>> >>>> Ken
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org
>> >>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 6:53 AM
>> >>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Hi Pranav,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thanks for the input. I understand how a spreadsheet can be used
>> >>>>> for doing matrix computations. The main thing that I am looking
>> >>>>> for is the most accessible display format. For example, MathML can
>> >>>>> be used to create beautiful matrix equations in an HTML page.
>> >>>>> Beautiful, that is, for sighted students. However, NVDA becomes
>> >>>>> silent when it encounters MathML in a web page. I don't have a
>> >>>>> copy of Jaws, so I don't know how it reacts to MathML in a web 
>> >>>>> page.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Most normal equations can be handled in an accessible manner by
>> >>>>> writing them on a single line using programming format. Matrix
>> >>>>> equations, on the other hand typically require three or four lines.
>> >>>>> I wondering how to configure those three or four lines in such a
>> >>>>> way that a blind student can make sense of them.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>> Dick Baldwin
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Pranav Lal<pranav.lal at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Hi Richard,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I have worked a bit with matrices. At the time I did, a
>> >>>>>> spreadsheet was the solution I chose. I could add rows and
>> >>>>>> columns without a fuss and they were accessible. Excel is the
>> >>>>>> tool to go for in windows. No special tool is required.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 11/15/11, Richard
>> >>>>>> Baldwin<baldwin at dickbaldwin.**com<baldwin at dickbaldwin.com>>
>> >>>>>>  wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I will be teaching the following course for the first time in
>> >>>>>>> the Spring
>> >>>>>>> 2012 semester.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> GAME 2302 - Mathematical Applications for Game Development
>> >>>>>>> (3-3-1) Presents applications of mathematics and science in game
>> >>>>>>> and simulation programming. Includes the utilization of matrix
>> >>>>>>> and vector operations, kinematics, and Newtonian principles in
>> >>>>>>> games and simulations. Also
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> covers
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> code optimization.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The course must be accessible for blind and VI students. Even if
>> >>>>>>> there
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> accessible textbooks at the college level covering these topics
>> >>>>>>> (which I
>> >>>>>>> doubt) it is far too late to adopt a new textbook for the course.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I really need suggestions from those who teach mathematics and
>> >>>>>>> blind students who study mathematics regarding the most
>> >>>>>>> accessible formats for presenting matrix equations.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> If special reader software is required (beyond a standard screen
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> reader), I
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> need to know that also.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>> >>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
>> >>>>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>> >>>>>>> College
>> >>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>> >>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/<http://www.austincc.edu/baldw
>> >>>>>>> in/> ______________________________**_________________
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>> >>>>>> 40
>> >>>>>> gm
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>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>> >>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>> >>>>> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>> >>>>> College
>> >>>>> (512) 223-4758
>> >>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
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>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
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>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>> >>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>> >>>> College
>> >>>> (512) 223-4758
>> >>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
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>> >>>>
>> >>>>
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>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>> >>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>
>> >>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>> >>> College
>> >>> (512) 223-4758
>> >>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> >>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>> >>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
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>> >>>
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>> >>
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>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>
>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
>> (512) 223-4758
>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
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>
>
>
> -- 
> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>
> Professor of Computer Information Technology
> Austin Community College
> (512) 223-4758
> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
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> du
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