[Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
Sina Bahram
sbahram at nc.rr.com
Thu Nov 17 00:12:06 UTC 2011
I've already written up the tables and sent them on this list. I'll disagree with you though, my friend, on the classes being
useful, because they are useful, as you said, for visual design, and universal design means we include everybody, not just folks
with disabilities or functional limitations.
Take care,
Sina
-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 5:06 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
Hi
No, a CSS class would only provide visual appeal (background
color/contrast, font size or color etc), it is purely visual appeal,
and screen readers generally ignore it.
The one exception I can think of where CSS affects screen readers is
when it is used to hide text or some other additional info that is for
the benefit of screen reader users only.
Then CSS is used to position the text off-screen, but so that it
received focus and the info is spoken for the benefit of screen reader
users (this is common with "skip to main content" type links pprovided
for quick navigation .. now mostly replaced by landmarks).
You could probably do something fancy with ARIA landmarks in a table,
but I don't see why you should bother with it.
If a regular data table looks good for sighted users, don't add any
classes/other CSS attributes if you don't need to.
As for how screen readers treat empty cells, I just have to write up a
tables with empty cells and see how Jaws, NVDA and Hal treats them. I
don't have access to Window Eyes or Voiceover on my machine at this
time.
I am terribly busy for the next two days, so if someone can write up
sample tables and do some of this testing, it'd be appreciated.
If not, I'll get to it over the weekend.
Thanks
-B
On 11/16/11, Richard Baldwin <baldwin at dickbaldwin.com> wrote:
> I have no problem with the visual appeal of "--" in a blank cell, provided
> it can't be misinterpreted as a minus sign for the value in the next cell.
> Of course, if it isn't needed, I would just as soon omit it.
>
> By the way, I appreciate that someone pointed out in an earlier post that
> the table needs to have a one-pixel (or presumably wider) border to avoid
> some kind of a screen reader problem. I will try to remember that.
>
> I also have another question. In an earlier post, I saw that someone had
> created a sample table with the word class associated with the row and data
> tags. I have probably created and published 500 to 1000 tables with simple
> tags similar to the following with no problems for sighted users:
>
> <table>
> <tr>
> <td>data data data</td>
> </tr>
> </table>
>
> Does the class thing provide information that is useful to a screen reader?
>
> Thanks,
> Dick Baldwin
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
> birkir.gunnarsson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My worry is that I am not sure that screen readers all necessarily
>> announce black cells, they may simply skipover them to the next
>> non-blank cell. If this isn't the case for any screen reader, there is
>> no worry. If there is, this is a huge problem, when you need to be
>> absolutely sure which cells in a matrix are blank.
>> Also I thought that entering, say a "--" would look visually appealing
>> enough, thogh I don't know this.
>> That is the source of my point. If I am working with a 4 by 4 matrix
>> with blanks in it, I want to be sure that it is a 4 by 4 set of cells
>> and I can identify the contents of each, even if it is blank.
>>
>>
>> On 11/16/11, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com> wrote:
>> > I think the main point missed here is that NVDA can do cell navigation,
>> OK
>> > may be not quite as nice (in some peoples' minds) but still perfectly
>> > accessible. I am sure if it became such an issue someone would feel
>> pushed
>> > enough to add it to opensource products like NVDA and then that might
>> push
>> > the commercial offerings to catch up as they would be lacking.
>> >
>> > Michael Whapples
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram at nc.rr.com>
>> > To: <john.gardner at orst.edu>; "'Blind Math list for those interested in
>> > mathematics'" <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:41 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >
>> >
>> >> That's cell navigation, no? in other words, that read 2, 5, 8 if you
>> were
>> >> navigating down a keypad, instead of reading, 1,2,3:
>> >> 4,5,6: 7,8,9.
>> >>
>> >> Take care,
>> >> Sina
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> ]
>> >> On Behalf Of John Gardner
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 5:39 PM
>> >> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>
>> >> Hmmm, it is news to me. I use CTRL-ALT arrows to navigate html tables
>> >> with
>> >> NVDA all the time. I know the NVDA folks are developing richer table
>> >> navigation, but this row/column navigation method works perfectly well.
>> I
>> >> actually prefer NVDA for this purpose and lots of other web tasks,
>> >> particularly filling out forms. It is really stable compared to the
>> other
>> >> screen readers.
>> >>
>> >> John
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> ]
>> >> On
>> >> Behalf Of Sina Bahram
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:51 PM
>> >> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>
>> >> I just confirmed this. NVDA does not currently have row/column reading,
>> >> but
>> >> I'll be requesting this, today.
>> >>
>> >> I'm discussing the matter with some folks on twitter. *glances at
>> previous
>> >> statement, and shakes head* never thought I'd say that,
>> >> before.
>> >>
>> >> Ken, thanks again for the heads up.
>> >>
>> >> Take care,
>> >> Sina
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> ]
>> >> On
>> >> Behalf Of Ken Perry
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 4:40 PM
>> >> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> No what I mean is a way to read the entire row for example 7 8 9 NVDA
>> >> doesn't seem to have that feature as of yet. In jaws they use
>> Microsoft
>> >> key , for rows and Microsoft key . for columns It is just an easy way
>> to
>> >> read the whole set of numbers and. The cell navigation is a good as
>> well
>> >> which it seems all the screen readers handle that.
>> >>
>> >> Ken
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> ]
>> >> On
>> >> Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:30 PM
>> >> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>
>> >> I am not sure what keys you mean.
>> >>
>> >> To navigate by cells in NVDA you use ctrl+alt+<cursors> to move around
>> the
>> >> table. Also users of the Mac and voiceover have this sort of
>> >> navigation.
>> >>
>> >> If you mean a way of defining which order NVDA reads through a table
>> when
>> >> doing continuous reading, then there is no option for that. However I
>> >> would
>> >> imagine such a feature would be fairly simple to be added for those who
>> >> are
>> >> familiar with NVDA code.
>> >>
>> >> Michael Whapples
>> >> On 15 Nov 2011, at 19:03, Ken Perry wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I agree with you in essence but when your designing something for a
>> >>> class it would be nice if the students who can not afford jaws can
>> >>> still get good access like I said I hope I am missing the keys for
>> >>> NVDA but I haven't found them yet.
>> >>>
>> >>> Ken
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> >>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:35 PM
>> >>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>>
>> >>> Wait a minute, NVDA doesn't have row/column reading?
>> >>>
>> >>> First off, let's not code to the lowest common denominator: we have
>> >>> enough of that in this field.
>> >>>
>> >>> I can't speak to system access, but I will start contacting NVDA guys
>> >>> right now about this issue.
>> >>>
>> >>> Ken, thanks for the heads up. I just assumed they had something so
>> basic.
>> >>>
>> >>> Take care,
>> >>> Sina
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> >>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:23 PM
>> >>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree except for one problem. With jaws you can use windows , and
>> >>> windows . to read the row or column in order but I have yet to find a
>> >>> way to do that with either system access or nvda. My first method
>> >>> allows you to read a whole row no matter the screen reader so I guess
>> >>> it depends if you need to be able to read a whole row of the numbers.
>> >>> Maybe you could add this feature fast enough to NVDA though, if it is
>> >>> not there and I just have not found it.
>> >>>
>> >>> OH all the screen readers seem to read the table version of the matrix
>> >>> fine by cells its just the row and column reading that I like with
>> >>> Jaws if you have to use tables.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> >>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:05 PM
>> >>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>>
>> >>> Where as a simple html table would be ideal for both.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> >>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:50 PM
>> >>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>>
>> >>> I am assuming that the blind student can scroll up and down through
>> >>> the rows using the up and down arrow keys, encountering only three
>> >>> values with each press of the arrow key.
>> >>>
>> >>> Another alternative would be to put all nine values for a 3x3 matrix
>> >>> on the same line with some sort of delimiter to indicate that each
>> >>> group of 3 values represents a row.
>> >>>
>> >>> However, there is a problem with this also. Despite the need to
>> >>> accommodate blind students in the course, I must also make certain
>> >>> that I accommodate the needs of sighted students. Sighted students are
>> >>> accustomed to seeing matrices written in rows and columns and all of
>> >>> the textbooks present matrices in that format. I must use a format
>> >>> that works for both the blind students and the sighted students, which
>> >>> is one of the reasons that I like this approach. It should work for
>> >>> blind students and it looks nominally correct for sighted students.
>> >>> Not
>> >> ideal for either but adequate for both.
>> >>>
>> >>> Dick Baldwin
>> >>>
>> >>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Ken Perry <kperry at blinksoft.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The good part is if you have it in this kind of form and the student
>> >>>> has another form he or she likes better its not hard to reparse this.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ken
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> >>>> On
>> >>>> Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:21 PM
>> >>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Great! This makes it work. Now when I tab into the first row of the
>> >>>> matrix, I hear three bar nine bar eight. Given an announcement that a
>> >>>> matrix follows, a blind student should be able to mentally separate
>> >>>> the columns and the rows without having to space through the
>> >>>> characters individually.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This scheme, or something very similar is what I will probably use.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks,
>> >>>> Dick Baldwin
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Icewolf <icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Hello,
>> >>>>> I don't have my copy of NVDA up at the moment. To change the
>> >>>>> punctuation
>> >>>>> level:
>> >>>>> 1. From the desktop press NVDA(insert key) plus n. This will get
>> >>>>> you into NVDA's settings.
>> >>>>> 2. Arrow down to preferences, then arrow right into the menu.
>> >>>>> 3. Arrow down till you hear, or see, the voice settings option and
>> >>>>> then press enter.
>> >>>>> 4. Once in this dialog box tab around till you see or hear the
>> >>>>> punctuation option. This will be a combo box.
>> >>>>> 5. Arrow up and down through the choices. I believe they are none,
>> >>>>> some, most, and all.
>> >>>>> 6. Choose all then tab to ok and press enter.
>> >>>>> There might be a way to do this on the fly without having to go into
>> >>>>> the preferences menu, but I am still a novice at NVDA and don't know
>> >>>>> it
>> >>>> yet.
>> >>>>> Hope this helps,
>> >>>>> Greg W.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day
>> >>>>> of all days.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On 11/15/2011 9:47 AM, Richard Baldwin wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Ken,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> You wrote: "Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?"
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I'm a novice at using NVDA.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> How do I make that setting?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Did you turn punctuation to all before trying this?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> ken
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**
>> >>>>>>> nfbnet.org <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard
>> >>>>>>> Baldwin
>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 9:26 AM
>> >>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> This approach works pretty well with NVDA as long as there is an
>> >>>>>>> announcement immediately before the matrix that a matrix follows.
>> >>>>>>> This is needed so the student will know to use the right and left
>> >>>>>>> arrow keys to step through the matrix elements. When the down
>> >>>>>>> arrow is used to enter the matrix, NVDA simply speaks 398 with no
>> >>>>>>> acknowledgement of the bars (or semicolons either);
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I know everyone on here will cringe but in truth this is how I
>> >>>>>>> would
>> >>>>>>>> want it but again I like using just a text editor and this way
>> >>>>>>>> seems to work great with jaws for me. This is just a simple page
>> >>>>>>>> with a 3 by
>> >>>>>>>> 3 matrix. It has the bars because<pre> elements don't get
>> >>> converted.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> <html>
>> >>>>>>>> <body>
>> >>>>>>>> <H1>A Matrix</h1>
>> >>>>>>>> <pre>
>> >>>>>>>> 3 | 9 | 8
>> >>>>>>>> 4 | 6 | 5
>> >>>>>>>> 6 | 4 | 8
>> >>>>>>>> </pre>
>> >>>>>>>> </body>
>> >>>>>>>> </html
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:03 AM
>> >>>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Thanks Ken,
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> So far, that seems to be the most accessible option. I suppose I
>> >>>>>>>> could style the matrices as<pre>xx</pre> and put them in XHTML
>> >>>>>>>> tables. That should make them accessible to a screen reader and
>> >>>>>>>> also make them look reasonable for the sighted students in the
>> >>>>>>>> course. Maybe there is a unicode character that could be used to
>> >>>>>>>> create the vertical bars that typically appear on printed
>> matrices.
>> >>>>>>>> If so, I wonder how a screen reader would treat those characters.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Other suggestions are welcome.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Ken Perry<kperry at blinksoft.com>
>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> When I did my matrix class back in the early 90's I used a text
>> >>>>>>>>> editor and an old laptop calculator called Xplore. The
>> >>>>>>>>> calculator still exists but the newest version is not that
>> >>>>>>>>> accessible. I would just type the matrix out in a text editor
>> >>>>>>>>> and space the
>> >>>> columns.
>> >>>>>>>>> That way when I wanted two add two rows I would block one row
>> >>>>>>>>> and put it under the other and move things around. I know that
>> >>>>>>>>> is not pretty but it gave me a good feel of how the sighted
>> >>>>>>>>> folks
>> >>> did it.
>> >>>>>>>>> I got to the point where I could do up to 2 4 by 4 matrixes in
>> >>>>>>>>> my head only writing down values as I multiplied them or if I
>> >>>>>>>>> was trying to solve them. It would take a bit of work to get
>> >>>>>>>>> back to that point now but all I am saying is don't give up on
>> >>>>>>>>> the simple text editor it sometimes is nice to be able to
>> >>>>>>>>> easily see all the
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> numbers in a row at a time.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Ken
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 6:53 AM
>> >>>>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Accessible display format for matrices
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Pranav,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for the input. I understand how a spreadsheet can be used
>> >>>>>>>>> for doing matrix computations. The main thing that I am looking
>> >>>>>>>>> for is the most accessible display format. For example, MathML
>> >>>>>>>>> can be used to create beautiful matrix equations in an HTML
>> >>>>>>>>> page.
>> >>>>>>>>> Beautiful, that is, for sighted students. However, NVDA becomes
>> >>>>>>>>> silent when it encounters MathML in a web page. I don't have a
>> >>>>>>>>> copy of Jaws, so I don't know how it reacts to MathML in a web
>> >>>>>>>>> page.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Most normal equations can be handled in an accessible manner by
>> >>>>>>>>> writing them on a single line using programming format. Matrix
>> >>>>>>>>> equations, on the other hand typically require three or four
>> lines.
>> >>>>>>>>> I wondering how to configure those three or four lines in such a
>> >>>>>>>>> way that a blind student can make sense of them.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Pranav
>> >>>>>>>>> Lal<pranav.lal at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Richard,
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I have worked a bit with matrices. At the time I did, a
>> >>>>>>>>>> spreadsheet was the solution I chose. I could add rows and
>> >>>>>>>>>> columns without a fuss and they were accessible. Excel is the
>> >>>>>>>>>> tool to go for in windows. No special tool is required.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> On 11/15/11, Richard
>> >>>>>>>>>> Baldwin<baldwin at dickbaldwin.**com<baldwin at dickbaldwin.com>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I will be teaching the following course for the first time in
>> >>>>>>>>>>> the Spring
>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2012 semester.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> GAME 2302 - Mathematical Applications for Game Development
>> >>>>>>>>>>> (3-3-1) Presents applications of mathematics and science in
>> >>>>>>>>>>> game and simulation programming. Includes the utilization of
>> >>>>>>>>>>> matrix and vector operations, kinematics, and Newtonian
>> >>>>>>>>>>> principles in games and simulations. Also
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> covers
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> code optimization.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> The course must be accessible for blind and VI students. Even
>> >>>>>>>>>>> if there
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> accessible textbooks at the college level covering these
>> >>>>>>>>>>> topics (which I
>> >>>>>>>>>>> doubt) it is far too late to adopt a new textbook for the
>> course.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I really need suggestions from those who teach mathematics and
>> >>>>>>>>>>> blind students who study mathematics regarding the most
>> >>>>>>>>>>> accessible formats for presenting matrix equations.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> If special reader software is required (beyond a standard
>> >>>>>>>>>>> screen
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> reader), I
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> need to know that also.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dick Baldwin
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>> >>>>>>>>>>> College
>> >>>>>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>> >>>>>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/<http://www.austincc.edu/bal
>> >>>>>>>>>>> dw in/> ______________________________**_________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http
>> >>>>>>>>>>> :/ /nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >>>>>>>>>>> info for
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Blindmath:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>> >>>>>>>>>> pranav.lal%
>> >>>>>>>>>> 40
>> >>>>>>>>>> gm
>> >>>>>>>>>> ail.com
>> >>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>> >>>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http:
>> >>>>>>>>>> // nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >>>>>>>>>> info for
>> >>>>>>>>>> Blindmath:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>> >>>>>>>>>> baldwin%40d<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.
>> >>>>>>>>>> or
>> >>>>>>>>>> g/baldwin%40d>
>> >>>>>>>>>> ic
>> >>>>>>>>>> kb
>> >>>>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
>> >>>>>>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>> >>>>>>>>> College
>> >>>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>> >>>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>> >>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>> >>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http:/
>> >>>>>>>>> /n fbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >>>>>>>>> info for
>> >>>>>>>>> Blindmath:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>> >>>>>>>>> kperry%40blin<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet
>> >>>>>>>>> .o
>> >>>>>>>>> rg/kperry%40blin>
>> >>>>>>>>> ks
>> >>>>>>>>> oft.co
>> >>>>>>>>> m
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>> >>>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http:/
>> >>>>>>>>> /n fbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >>>>>>>>> info for
>> >>>>>>>>> Blindmath:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>> >>>>>>>>> baldwin%40dic<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet
>> >>>>>>>>> .o
>> >>>>>>>>> rg/baldwin%40dic>
>> >>>>>>>>> kb
>> >>>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin) Home of Baldwin's on-line Java
>> >>>>>>>> Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>> >>>>>>>> College
>> >>>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>> >>>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>> >>>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>> >>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>> >>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http://
>> >>>>>>>> nf bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>> Blindmath:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>> >>>>>>>> kperry%40blinks<
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.
>> >>>>>>>> org/kperry%40blinks>
>> >>>>>>>> oft.co
>> >>>>>>>> m
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>> >>>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http://
>> >>>>>>>> nf bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>> Blindmath:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>> >>>>>>>> baldwin%40dickb<
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.
>> >>>>>>>> org/baldwin%40dickb>
>> >>>>>>>> aldwin.com
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>> >>>>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>> >>>>>>> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community
>> >>>>>>> College
>> >>>>>>> (512) 223-4758
>> >>>>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/
>> >>>>>>> <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
>> >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>> >>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http://n
>> >>>>>>> fb net.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>> Blindmath:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>> >>>>>>> kperry%40blinksoft.co<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_
>> >>>>>>> nf
>> >>>>>>> bnet.org/kperry%40blinksoft.co>
>> >>>>>>> m
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>> >>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http://n
>> >>>>>>> fb net.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>> Blindmath:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>> >>>>>>> baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindm
>> >>>>>>> at h_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>> >>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http://nfb
>> >>>>> ne t.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>>> for
>> >>>>> Blindmath:
>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
>> >>>>> baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmat
>> >>>>> h_ nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>> >>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
>> >>>> (512) 223-4758
>> >>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>>> Blindmath:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kperry%40blink
>> >>>> s
>> >>>> oft.co
>> >>>> m
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>>> Blindmath:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dick
>> >>>> b
>> >>>> aldwin.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>> >>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>> >>>
>> >>> Professor of Computer Information Technology Austin Community College
>> >>> (512) 223-4758
>> >>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> >>> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>> Blindmath:
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sbahram%40nc.rr
>> >>> .com
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>> Blindmath:
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kperry%40blinks
>> >>> oft.co
>> >>> m
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>> Blindmath:
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sbahram%40nc.rr
>> >>> .com
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>> Blindmath:
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kperry%40blinks
>> >>> oft.co
>> >>> m
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Blindmath mailing list
>> >>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> Blindmath:
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim
>> >>> .com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Blindmath mailing list
>> >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> Blindmath:
>> >>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kperry%40blinksoft.co
>> >> m
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Blindmath mailing list
>> >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> Blindmath:
>> >>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sbahram%40nc.rr.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Blindmath mailing list
>> >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> Blindmath:
>> >>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/john.gardner%40orst.e
>> >> du
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Blindmath mailing list
>> >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> Blindmath:
>> >>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sbahram%40nc.rr.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Blindmath mailing list
>> >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> Blindmath:
>> >>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> >> signature database 6636 (20111116) __________
>> >>
>> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>> >>
>> >> http://www.eset.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> > database 6636 (20111116) __________
>> >
>> > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>> >
>> > http://www.eset.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Blindmath mailing list
>> > Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > Blindmath:
>> >
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/birkir.gunnarsson%40gmail.com
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Blindmath:
>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>
> Professor of Computer Information Technology
> Austin Community College
> (512) 223-4758
> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Blindmath:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/birkir.gunnarsson%40gmail.com
>
_______________________________________________
Blindmath mailing list
Blindmath at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Blindmath:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sbahram%40nc.rr.com
More information about the BlindMath
mailing list