[Blindmath] Some suggestions for Richard Baldwin'sSVGdrawingtool

Tue Oct 4 22:10:22 UTC 2011

First let me go back and make a comment on inches versus metric. Until I am
able to provide a metric option, it should be possible to enter metric data
just as though it is in inches and correct the final drawing using the Scale
action on the Mod menu. However, I haven't thought this through completely,
so there may be some complications.

Now to the current message.

My todo list already contains an option to duplicate or copy an existing
element.

There is a grouping capability in SVG but so far, SVGDraw does not support
it.

In fact, if you import an svg file from another program, such as an svg
drawing from www.fooplot.com, the program automatically un-groups the file
(or at least attempts to do so) in order to provide access to the individual
elements in the drawing for editing purposes. This seems to me to be an
important capability.

Also, if you save a drawing using SVGDraw and import it later, it comes back
in as a set of individual elementss.

On the other hand, as you mention, there are times when it might be
desirable to purposely group various elements , so I will put that on my
list of things to consider.

In addition to saving drawings and importing them later, it is also possible
to import csv files to create polylines or polygons, or to import path files
written in the SVG path language. In those cases, the drawing element that
is produced, regardless of its complexity, is saved as a single element that
can be rotated, translated, scaled, clipped, deleted, or moved up and down
the drawing stack just like a simple circle or rectangle. The svg path
language can be used to create very complex objects including quadratic and
cubic Bezier curves, elliptical arcs, and circular arcs just to name a few
of its capabilities.

Now to your grayscale question. So far, the SVGDraw program does not support
color (although an advanced user can incorporate color in one of the actions
on the Advanced menu). There were many decisions that I had to make in
developing this program. One of those decisions is that blind users probably
don't care about color, but they may care about grayscale if they have a
Tiger. Therefore, I decided to implement opacity that can also be used to
create grayscale.

I have recently received some interest from sighted people who have
difficulties using a mouse but can use a keyboard. Those people are
interested in color. Therefore, one of the items on my list is to implement
color directly. This in turn will allow for creating totally opaque drawing
elements that are some shade of gray or any of the other 16-million colors
that can be be created using an ARGB color system.

In the interim, you might want to try using the Set Attribute action on the
Advanced menu to set the fill color of an opaque object to one of the colors
defined as a constant in the Java Color Class. (Insofar as the final output
is concerned, you could use any of the color names that SVG recognizes.) I
haven't done a lot of testing there, so I don't know how well it works. I
just did a pink fill with RED at 0.5 opacity, and a gray fille with GRAY at
1.0 opacity, so at least you can do that. Note, however, that I haven't
implemented that capability in my unreleased real-time visual display and
that will be more difficult than implementing it into the final SVG output.
I will have to map SVG color names into Java color names, which may not be
the same.

Thanks for the very valuable feedback.

Dick Baldwin

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com> wrote:

> I have the feeling that in IVEO there is a group element for grouping
> elements together. I would imagine that it is an SVG thing as IVEO is based
> on SVG. How easily that could be implemented for importing, I do not know.
> However, as you say even within one drawing this could be useful. May be
> also coming from that, a duplicate element/group might be good.
>
> Michael Whapples
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amanda Lacy" <lacy925 at gmail.com>
>
> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:08 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Some suggestions for Richard
> Baldwin'sSVGdrawingtool
>
>
>  I've been thinking this for a while. I suppose the program would have to
>> know how to keep track of groups of shapes. These could either be from an
>> imported file or created on the fly. For example, I could go into the shapes
>> list, select four lines, one rectangle, and one circle and decide to call
>> that group "stick figure". This would only last for the duration of the
>> program, as I do not think that SVG supports anything like this, but while
>> the program is running you could create an army of stick figures.
>>
>> Amanda
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples at aim.com>
>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" <
>> blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 3:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Some suggestions for Richard Baldwin's
>> SVGdrawingtool
>>
>>
>>  Hello,
>>>
>>> I possibly could help out with writing some parts of code as I do know
>>> how to programme Java applications. However I would say I have no clue how
>>> much time I could commit to it as I tend to have a number of other things on
>>> the go.
>>>
>>> I have a question/suggestion. How does the SVG import feature work (the
>>> import for drawings done in SVG draw)? The way the instructions I have read,
>>> seem to suggest one could build up a library of shapes/objects they wish to
>>> use and then you could import that. As an example, arrow heads could be
>>> quite useful for many types of diagram, may be also stick figures, etc, so I
>>> could have a library of these elements in separate SVG files. My question
>>> is, when I import these, how convenient is it to scale/position these
>>> "elements" I import? Would it be possible for these to become single
>>> elements of the diagram? May be that latter one is stretching what SVG could
>>> do, but hopefully you see why it would be useful (IE. if I need to
>>> reposition it again then I could just find "stick figure" from the list of
>>> elements and then adjust like other elements like lines or circles, rather
>>> than having to select all the individual parts which make up that stick
>>> figure).
>>>
>>> Michael Whapples
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Baldwin" <
>>> baldwin at dickbaldwin.com>
>>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" <
>>> blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 6:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Some suggestions for Richard Baldwin's SVG
>>> drawingtool
>>>
>>>
>>>  Thanks for the feedback. I will insert my responses in your test below.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Hello,
>>>>> I have just tried using Richard Baldwin's SVG drawing tool. This is
>>>>> quite
>>>>> useful. I have a few comments/suggestions to make.
>>>>>
>>>>> The first is whether it would be possible to also have an option for
>>>>> metric
>>>>> units? I was having to create a diagram from some measurements I had in
>>>>> metric and it would have been so much easier if I could have just
>>>>> entered
>>>>> values in metric.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> rgb] This is definitely possible, so I will put it on my todo list.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Also, it seems simple enough to use, however particularly on the save,
>>>>> the
>>>>> action based approach was slightly unusual and caught me out. I am very
>>>>> much
>>>>> used to most software having save only prompt for file name when you
>>>>> first
>>>>> save and should you want to save under a different file name then you
>>>>> use
>>>>> "save as". I guess this is really a familiarity issue, once I
>>>>> remembered
>>>>> this tool needed me to confirm the save it worked fine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> rgb] Good point. I will put this on the list also and consider a more
>>>> standard approach.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> May be also related to the action based approach, sometimes things
>>>>> seemed
>>>>> to require more action from me than felt needed. I guess one point
>>>>> might be
>>>>> when I select set attributes, why cannot the list of elements be
>>>>> created
>>>>> then, why do I need to press another button?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> rgb] This is also a good point and I will put it on my todo list to
>>>> consider. The same thing occurs on most of the actions on the Mod menu
>>>> and
>>>> the Advanced menu. Do you have any other suggestions as to where the
>>>> number
>>>> of steps required is excessive for a blind user?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I quite like the way of marking elements when editing them, however how
>>>>> might one deselect something if they made a mistake and how can one
>>>>> tell if
>>>>> an item is selected or not? May be the answer is in the instructions
>>>>> but you
>>>>> know what it can be like when you have to read documentation... I
>>>>> possibly
>>>>> say really well designed software shouldn't need people to read
>>>>> documentation as it should be obvious what to do (either because the
>>>>> software is so clear or it just follows a convention on how to get the
>>>>> specific help you need).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> rgb] Maybe someday I will have context-sensitive help, but that day will
>>>> probably be a long way off, or else I will have to hire programming
>>>> assistance and charge dollars for the program instead of giving it away
>>>> for
>>>> free. If you have other suggestions for a better design, I would like to
>>>> hear them.
>>>>
>>>> rgb] Your first question in the above paragraph regarding
>>>> selecting/deselecting is a good one. I will put it on my list to
>>>> consider.
>>>> As it stands now, when you mark an object, you get a message box asking
>>>> you
>>>> to confirm the selection, so you have an opportunity to cancel the
>>>> selection
>>>> at that point. The corrective procedure if you select the wrong object
>>>> and
>>>> confirm that selection is to simply tab past the action button at the
>>>> bottom
>>>> and start that action over again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I have to say I did feel a little uncertain on editing some of the
>>>>> diagram,
>>>>> may be its to do with the options available for editing and may be some
>>>>> of
>>>>> its to do with not quite knowing what is there (IE. no way to view the
>>>>> current diagram). I guess that latter point, users of the voice would
>>>>> say
>>>>> that is what the voice is for.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> rgb] Right now, the best way to view the current drawing is to save it
>>>> and
>>>> open the SVG file in Firefox, Chrome, or IE9 (IE8 and lower won't work).
>>>> It
>>>> is reasonably easy to act, save, refresh Firefox, and view.
>>>>
>>>> rgb] I will soon publish a version that has a real-time visual output
>>>> for
>>>> sighted users, vOICe uses, and users with some but low vision. If you
>>>> have
>>>> suggestions as to how to make it possible for blind users to view the
>>>> drawing other than to use the Review action in the Mod menu, to use
>>>> something like vOICe, or to emboss the current drawing, I would like to
>>>> hear
>>>> about them.
>>>>
>>>> Again,
>>>> Thanks for the feedback. I will put your suggestions on my todo list for
>>>> incorporation into future versions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Michael Whapples
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>>>> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>>>> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>>>>
>>>> Professor of Computer Information Technology
>>>> Austin Community College
>>>> (512) 223-4758
>>>> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>>>> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/ <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
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-- 
Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
http://www.DickBaldwin.com

Professor of Computer Information Technology
Austin Community College
(512) 223-4758
mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/