[Blindmath] Question

Sat Oct 8 17:16:11 UTC 2011

Winona:

How many pages in braille you will use will depend on a lot of factors.  I like making geometry diagrams with wikki stix on braille paper.  I don't know if you do that, but they take up some room.  I was fully sighted when I first took geometry, and I remember being able to fit a whole lot of information-basically anything I would ever need for a test-on one sheet of notebook paper.  I can feel pretty confident in saying that, essentially, your teacher is giving the sighted students enough room to write everything that they need.  Part of the point of keeping a note sheet brief is also that you aren't scanning through useless or less-concise information during the test in order to make the best use of your time.  I recommend making up some notes that really just have the definitions, formulas, and example designs that you need with nothing that you don't really need and asking your teacher to count that because of the equivalence in the amount of material covered.  You can show her what your sheets of braille paper cover and ask her to determine if it is reasonable to conclude that a sighted person can fit that much on a sheet of notebook paper.

Try not to translate print inches for braille inches because of the nature of diagrams.  Try to equate your content and your peers' content.

Good luck!

Justin

Justin M. Salisbury
Undergraduate Student
The University Honors Program
East Carolina University
salisburyj08 at students.ecu.edu

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.”    —MARGARET MEAD

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: SVG Draw (John Gardner)
   2. Question (winona)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 10:29:28 -0700
From: "John Gardner" <john.gardner at orst.edu>
To: "'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'"
        <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] SVG Draw
Message-ID: <004c01cc8516$ab384c70$01a8e550$@gardner at orst.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

Hello Amanda, Creator Pro does permit the user to import nearly anything,
including graphics scanned from paper.  Creator and Creator Pro both have
the further useful feature of pernmitting users to add titles and
descriptions to the SVG file and graphical objects as well as to create
overlays, repair broken text, etc.  These aps include the ViewPlus license
when saving a file, so it can also be viewed in IVEO Viewer.

But you are correct that the drawing tools are created for sighted users.
Frankly I didn't have the imagination to design something like SVG Draw, and
I congratulate Dick for being clever than I am.

If you want to create SVG drawing with SVG Draw and use them with IVEO, you
presently must use Creator or Creator Pro because SVG Draw presently does
not include that ViewPlus license.  But I'm trying to do something about
that.  Stay tuned.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Amanda Lacy [mailto:lacy925 at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 9:47 AM
To: john.gardner at orst.edu; Blind Math list for those interested in
mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] SVG Draw

John,

I've read some about IVEO on the Viewplus website and it is still unclear to

me why a blind person would want IVEO Creator verses IVEO Viewer. I can see
the benefit of IVEO Creator Pro if one wants to convert graphics or PDF
files into SVG files or scan them using OCR. I can also appreciate the
usefulness of a touchpad. However, the purpose of the other listed features
of Creator and Creator Pro are not obvious to me, and since a blind person
cannot create drawings with standard software it would only make sense to
give us access through SVGDraw.

Amanda
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Gardner" <john.gardner at orst.edu>
To: "'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'"
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] SVG Draw

> Michael, shame on you.  I thought you understood IVEO, but you could also
> read more carefully.  The issue is licensing.  IVEO Viewer provides audio
> access for ViewPlus-licensed files - ie those made with Creator, Creator
> Pro, or other aps with ViewPlus licenses.n  I am offering to make SVG Draw
> such a ViewPlus-licensed application to be given free to blind users.
> What's the problem?
>
> Presently IVEO applications all utilize standard SVG 1.0.  The new IVEO 3
> version will incorporate new features that are already on the docket for
> inclusion in SVG 2.0.  For the time being of course, IVEO 3 can indeed
> include features beyond SVG 1.0.
>
> Finally I believe that the IVEO ip protection scheme is much more
> user-friendly than locking to hardware.  Locking to hardware is more like
> extortion than ip protection.  In fact IVEO supports any external pointing
> devices that emulate the mouse.  Admittedly the most convenient device is
> the IVEO touchpad, which now uses its own interface that avoids some of
> the
> inconveniences of mouse emulation.  You can also print to regular printers
> to make swell paper tactiles instead of using a ViewPlus embosser.
>
> John
>
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Michael Whapples
> Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 6:40 AM
> To: john.gardner at orst.edu; Blind Math list for those interested in
> mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] SVG Draw
>
> Hello John,
> Your first comment/question is something which gets me a bit. So only IVEO
> creator or creator pro can produce files with speakable titles and
> descriptions? I take it then that this is not using a standard part of
> SVG?
> I know why that decision may have been made, however I possibly view it as

> a
> limitation of the IVEO system rather than an enhancement (if SVG elements
> can normally have a text title and description). A limitation as IVEO
> doesn't work with standard SVG.
> As I said I guess I know the reasons, you need something to make people
> buy
> IVEO stuff. Might people be prepared to pay an affordable amount for a
> IVEO
> viewer which works with standard SVG drawings? Should the IVEO creator
> tools
> offer a more compelling reason to buy them (EG. live up to their name and
> be
> the compelling tool for creating a drawing)? There is the other way to get
> people to buy and that is through hardware lock in (IE. the software is so
> tightly integrated with the hardware they have to buy your hardware for
> the
> tool to be useful).
>
> Michael whapples
> On 6 Oct 2011, at 22:57, John Gardner wrote:
>
>> Hello all, I have several questions and comments on SVG Draw.  One
> question
>> for list members is whether it would be useful to have full IVEO access
>> to
>> SVG files made with SVG Draw.  Presently, because of licensing
> requirements,
>> you must have IVEO Creator or IVEO Creator Pro to get audio access to the
>> SVG title and description and the object titles and descriptions entered
>> when creating an SVG drawing with SVG Draw.  If many of you would like to
>> have it, I will request that the IVEO authoring license be added to SVG
> Draw
>> in a special version available only to blind users.  This will make these
>> files IVEO-accessible in the free IVEO Viewer.  Don't know how the
>> distribution would work, but tell me whether it would be useful enough to
>> you for us to spend the effort to work out details.
>>
>> Now a comment on color.  There is an undocumented feature in all ViewPlus
>> printer drivers that permit one to substitute a tactile pattern of your
>> design for a color.  I intend to write an article for Access2Science
>> documenting use of this feature - which you can then use with SVG
>> drawings
>> created with SVG Draw.
>>
>> Finally I have a number of suggestions for Dick Baldwin on improvements
>> to
>> SVG Draw, primarily usability.  Let me be very clear that I think this is
> a
>> terrific application, already better than anything ever made for creating
>> graphics by blind people.  But you asked for suggestions!
>> * It is too wordy in my opinion.  You have a wonderful help file, and it
>> really isn't necessary to be told every time that the coordinates are
> inches
>> multiplied by 100.  And there are 'ok' boxes that aren't really needed.
>> When one clicks to get some action that can't be damaging, one doesn't
> need
>> to confirm that this is what one really wants.  It's good to have this
>> for
>> things like "do you really want to exit without saving this file?" etc.
>> Interesting, one place that such a question is normally asked is when one
> is
>> saving over an existing file, and SVG Draw doesn't seem to do that.  But
>> maybe I just missed it.
>> *It would be really good if you could use the standard Windows (or Java
> SWT)
>> file open and save dialogues.  Anybody sophisticated enough to use SVG
> Draw
>> uses these routinely, and it is disconcerting not to have them.
>> *Several read-only dialog boxes are less accessible then they could be.
>> I
>> just reviewed the objects in a drawing.  First of all there seems to be
>> an
>> id that I didn't put on, and it doesn't help me to identify the object,
>> so
> I
>> suggest that it be suppressed, so that only the object type (ie line,
>> polyline) is shown along with coordinates.  Secondly this dialog is
>> fairly
>> long, and it cannot be reviewed easily.  One can use the mouse, or review
>> mode in NVDA, but this is tedious.  It is possible to permit cursor
> movement
>> in read-only dialog boxes, at least in standard windows dialogs, because
>> there are many such.  Can you do this for these logn dialogs?  If so,
> screen
>> readers will then be able to review the information letter by letter or
> word
>> by word, a great help for me anyhow.
>>
>> Thanks all.  This is fun!
>>
>> John Gardner
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 12:43:15 -0400
From: winona <trumpetqueenwb at gmail.com>
To: blindmath at nfbnet.org, blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Blindmath] Question
Message-ID: <4e907ddf.07bb650a.1840.ffffa36e at mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed

Hello everyone,

I have a geometry exam next week and my teacher told us that we
can use one sheet of notebook paper front and back for anything
that we don't feel comfortable with or are a little unsure of.
So my question is, how many pages is that in Braille? I've heard
that for every page and Braille is only is only half a page in
print, but sence geometrry have so much pictures, wouldn't that
take up more space than words?

I hope this makes sence.  And I have to do it because my teacher
is grading it as a quiz grade.

Thanks,
Winona

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