[Blindmath] Nemeth questions and results of Using the Perkins

Wed Feb 8 23:59:58 UTC 2012

Ok, but I still don't understand why Nemeth has to use 2 character 
codes for things where there already exists a Braille representation.

For example, why dot k instead of = (i.e. dots 1 2 3 4 5 6)
Why .s instead of $ (i.e. dots 1 2 4 6)

Thanks

Ben

At 06:03 PM 2/8/2012, you wrote:
>Hi,
>This is more towards programming than math - although math is involved here:
>In order for a braille display (rather, a braille terminal) to 
>output a braille character, the driver (software) needs to receive 
>the character information.  Here, I refer to the screen reader with 
>relevant braille rules or tables.  Without ways of representing math 
>symbols in braille format (one or two cells), you cannot get Nemeth 
>on a braille display.  There is a way to type Nemeth on a 
>BrailleNote Apex (at least in braille files) because there is a 
>Nemeth braille table and grade availible.
>As for symbols and what not, I don't know for certaintly, but Nemeth 
>shows up a lot in scientific notations such as in chemistry and 
>higher math such as calculus.  But, as you said, there are some 
>characters which correspnds to both Nemeth and ASCII braille such as 
>plus and letter symbols.
>As for braille shortcuts with ASCII computer braille, I feel you, 
>but there is a reasonable explanation: braille character codes, math 
>symbols and ASCII are now grouped under Unicode.  For instance, in 
>order to display the ASCII equals sign (dots 1-2-3-4-5-6), the 
>braille display driver needs to know the ASCII value of equals sign 
>and consult a braille table to see which braille code (in Unicode) 
>is assigned to this character.  This is a one-to-one correspondence 
>because you can display up to two to the n number of ASCII 
>characters using two to the n number of braille dots, hence:
>2~1 = 2 (either up or down dot).
>2~6 = 64 (including blank space, which Unicode has a code for it).
>2~8 = 256 (this includes all possible ASCII characters such as 
>control characters, uppercase symbols and such).
>If we extend this argument and say that we wish to represent a 
>Unicode character (such as some math symbols) using two or more 
>braille characters.  Then we can have up to:
>(2~6)*(2~6) = 2~12 = 4096 (enouch to represent a lot of symbols 
>involving integrals).
>(2~8)*(2~8) = 2~16 = 65536 (Covering all possible Unicode characters 
>in existence today).  So, as you can see, from the ASCII example, 
>each braille dot combination is indeed represented in Unicode, and 
>each dot pattern in Unicode table for braille code corresponds to 
>one ASCII symbol.
>The above statement on one-to-one corresponence works for one letter 
>braille symbols.  But some Nemeth symbols require two or more 
>braille dot patterns to represent, and we run into a problem: how 
>would a machine (in this case, the software which controls the 
>braille display) know which character should be displayed using one, 
>two or three characters? One way of solving it is using smarter 
>"parsers" (file readers) that, as soon as first character of a 
>two-letter symbol has been entered, tries to guess which one the 
>user would enter next.  For instance, if a user enters dot 4, the 
>software would think, "hmmm, does the student wish to enter cent 
>sign or dollar sign?" If the user types s, then the software would 
>display a dollar sign to the braille display (I gave an example of 
>typing, but it applies to reading these symbols with a braille 
>display).  Another aprroach (a slight variant algorithm from above) 
>is for the software to evaluate two-letter symbols after seeing a 
>space, newline or other terminator symbol.
>As to how to express this in JavaScript or any kind of language, I 
>think we should talk about it in a more programming forum.
>Sorry for all the rants.  Hope this helps.
>Cheers,
>Joseph
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Ben Humphreys <brh at opticinspiration.org
>To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 16:38:41 -0500
>Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Nemeth questions and results of Using the Perkins
>
>Susan,
>
>As I understood from a web document I believe you posted recently,
>Nemeth and computer ASCII are pretty compatible.
>
>Why wouldn't a braille display work with Nemeth?
>
>Also, another thing I'm not clear on with the Nemeth is the strange
>representation for =, (, ).  Why is it that those need to be coded as
>dot k etc when they could be represented as their actual braille characters?
>
>Finally, as long as greek letters are not used, what is the benefit
>of Nemeth over computer ASCII?  All the normal expressions like a +
>b >= (c^2) / d (such as you might write in Javascript) seem easy
>enough to produce in computer ASCII.
>Please forgive my ignorance; I'm trying to figure this out at
>40-something without the benefit of a TVI or a 6-year-old's spongy brain.
>
>Thank you
>
>Ben
>
>At 03:43 PM 2/8/2012, you wrote:
>It can, but the math will not appear in Nemeth code if this is what you
>want.
>
>Sharon
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Julian, Kate
>Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 1:08 PM
>To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Results of Using the Perkins
>
>I didn't know the bn can act as a display from the computer, that is
>interesting.
>
>kj
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Alex Hall
>Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 12:01 PM
>To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Results of Using the Perkins
>
>Why not use the computer straight away, with the brailleNote as a display?
>This, of course, assumes the screen reader supports the bn.
>
>On 2/8/12, Julian, Kate <KJulian at bluevalleyk12.org> wrote:
>OK, so picture this, my student is sitting next to me, his BrailleNote
>is in his lap as his calculator (he has agreed that he will use the
>computer's calculator instead), the computer monitor and keyboard in
>front of him so he can key in his work and answers.  The Perkins is
>also on the desk along with the necessary paper.  Then there is the
>braille version of the test, his brailled test answers, and now he is
>trying to make test corrections.  YIKES!
>We found that he did complete his algebra better using the Perkins and
>then transferring his answers to Word so we can read them.  But this
>method is tedious.  I am looking at LiveMath Maker and Scientific
>Notebook.  Thank you everybody for your suggestions!
>
>Have a great day - Kate
>
>
>
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