[Blindmath] How useful is a GUI to blind users?

Sat Jan 7 20:35:37 UTC 2012

Thanks,
I will definitely take a look at it.
Dick Baldwin

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Alex Hall <mehgcap at gmail.com> wrote:

> Certainly I can understand sticking with the language you know best,
> and that is why I brought up wx. I use it in Python and have never run
> into accessibility problems. In fact, it is used in the Qwitter
> project and it's forks, and the writer of Qwitter has an entire gui
> wrapper based on it. I believe it can be used in java as well, and it
> may be worth investigating. I am not familiar enough with making guis
> in java to say whether or not you will run into problems with wx
> similar to those you encountered in swt, but it might be worth a look.
>
> On 1/7/12, Richard Baldwin <baldwin at dickbaldwin.com> wrote:
> > I'm not familiar with wx. However, as I stated in an earlier post, each
> of
> > us have our strong suites when it comes to programming environments. When
> > programming for free on my own time, I prefer to use the programming
> > environment in which I am most efficient.
> >
> > While I do program in C++, C#, and Python when when the need arises, I am
> > most familiar with Java.  Having to switch from a familiar programming
> > environment to one that is less familiar significantly degrades my
> ability
> > to quickly and efficiently produce good programs.
> >
> > For example, Java and C# are very similar programming languages. Often
> the
> > names of events, variables, and methods in the class libraries are the
> > same, but with different upper and lower case usage. (After all,
> Microsoft
> > had to do something to distinguish C# from Java.) Even with the
> > similarities between the two languages, I can write the same program much
> > more quickly in Java than in C# because I spend so much time in the C#
> > documentation dealing with spelling and capitalization issues.
> >
> > Thanks for the feedback.
> > Dick Baldwin
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Alex Hall <mehgcap at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I see your point now. In that case, I can understand how a prompt
> >> interface is easier and more accessible. However, I can also see a lot
> >> of errors happening if someone mistypes a command or misses an
> >> instruction on what to type. Using screen readers, words are often
> >> chopped up as they break to fit the command prompt window, necessating
> >> the use of review commands (review mode in nvda, jaws cursor in jaws).
> >> At least in jaws, users must then switch into the jaws cursor, read or
> >> re-read the text of a prompt or help message, then switch back and
> >> type the command. In a gui, all the user needs to do is select from a
> >> menu or list, or tab to a control to hear it's prompt.
> >> While I can see the value of a command prompt interface, I have
> >> usually found them to be frustrating to work with compared to a
> >> properly constructed gui. Sometimes, of course, there is nothing as
> >> nice as being able to open a command window and do whatever you need
> >> to do, but most times I would choose a gui. Writing in java seems to
> >> be the difficulty here. Have you looked into an alternative gui
> >> library? I read that wx has java bindings, so that may be a better way
> >> to go, plus it will work on all platforms. Better still, what about a
> >> language like python (cross-platform and much smaller than java) or
> >> cpp?
> >>
> >> On 1/7/12, Richard Baldwin <baldwin at dickbaldwin.com> wrote:
> >> > I am speaking specifically of programs that are specialized for blind
> >> > and
> >> > possibly VI users, with particular emphasis being on blind users. For
> >> > example, there are many drawing programs that sighted users can use,
> but
> >> > which are not not accessible for blind users. Some of them would be
> >> > accessible for VI users using magnifiers, etc.
> >> >
> >> > I have written and published a drawing program that blind users can
> use
> >> to
> >> > draw just about anything they can imagine, but sighted users might not
> >> want
> >> > to use the program because there are better alternatives for sighted
> >> users.
> >> > There may also be better alternatives for VI users.
> >> >
> >> > The user interface was written using SWT and it currently only runs
> >> > under
> >> > Windows. Additional programming effort and a considerable maintenance
> >> > effort would be required to make it compatible with other platforms. A
> >> > prompt-reply interface would have been much easier to write, and, I
> >> > believe, would run on any platform that supports Java without any
> >> > additional programming or maintenance effort. And, I believe that,
> with
> >> > some thought and a good design, it could be made almost as efficient
> >> > from
> >> > the user's viewpoint.
> >> >
> >> > Amanda has written and has published a program that will convert an
> SVG
> >> > drawing file into a SIG file for embossing on machines that use the
> >> > QuickTac software. I doubt that many sighted users would have any
> >> interest
> >> > in that program, but I expect that quite a few blind users will be
> >> > interested in using it, particularly if the new 25-dpi Phoenix
> embosser
> >> > supports the QuickTac SIG file format.
> >> >
> >> > Once again, the GUI for Amanda's program was written using SWT, and it
> >> > currently runs only on Windows. Additional programming effort would be
> >> > required to make it compatible with other platforms. The user
> interface
> >> for
> >> > that program is very simple. I believe that if the interface had been
> >> > written as a prompt-reply interface, the program would be compatible
> >> > with
> >> > any platform that supports Java.
> >> >
> >> > Quite a lot of cleanup work is often required to convert a typical
> >> > bitmap
> >> > file into a file that can be embossed to produce a meaningful tactile
> >> > image. I am currently working on a program which I hope will make it
> >> > possible for blind users to do a reasonable job of doing the cleanup
> >> > work
> >> > and converting bitmap image files into SVG files, and with Amanda's
> >> > program, into SIG files, for embossing without sighted assistance.
> Once
> >> > again, I doubt that most sighted users would be interested in using
> this
> >> > program, but it could be very useful for blind students who need to
> >> emboss
> >> > the images in a typical textbook to use in combination with the
> >> > descriptions of the images in the textbook.
> >> >
> >> > So, my question has to do with specialized programs that are designed
> >> > for
> >> > use by blind and VI users, with the major emphasis being on blind
> users.
> >> As
> >> > you point out, other alternatives are often available for VI users.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for the response.
> >> >
> >> > Dick Baldwin
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 12:03 PM, Alex Hall <mehgcap at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> My first thought is low-vision users who need accessibility for
> screen
> >> >> readers or magnification, but can still benefit from a good gui.
> Also,
> >> >> many tasks are significantly sped up by using keyboard shortcuts and
> >> >> finding functions in dropdown menus, and you lose that when you use a
> >> >> command prompt. Some tasks simply require a gui, too, such as sound
> >> >> editing, web browsing (and, from there, reading of many emails), or
> >> >> media playback (especially for skipping through tracks).
> >> >> All that aside, there is still the overall question of
> specialization:
> >> >> do you want to write a program that anyone can use, or do you want to
> >> >> write a program specifically for blind users that no one else can (or
> >> >> at least would want) to use? I see this as being similar to
> >> >> specialized notetakers. It used to be that they were a good and even
> >> >> necessary solution, but nowadays you can pick up a braille display
> and
> >> >> an iPhone and have almost as much functionality for less money and
> >> >> without dealing with all the headaches of supporting a highly
> >> >> specialized platform (high overhead, long waits for updates, missing
> >> >> features, and so on). Instead, you can get access to most apps that
> >> >> anyone else has, plus the lower costs of the equipment and any
> >> >> protection plans. When programming, I would nearly always take the
> >> >> program that everyone else is using over a highly specialized program
> >> >> that only a few are using. There are a very few exceptions to this,
> >> >> the Twitter client Qwitter and its forks being one, but that is
> mostly
> >> >> because it is the first program I tried and I have not yet tried,
> say,
> >> >> the Twitter website with the GM script written by James Teh to
> enhance
> >> >> NVDA's compatibility with that interface.
> >> >>
> >> >> On 1/7/12, Richard Baldwin <baldwin at dickbaldwin.com> wrote:
> >> >> > It occurred to me the other day that prior to the advent of the
> >> >> > Graphical
> >> >> > User Interface (GUI), the user interfaces for all programs were
> >> >> accessible
> >> >> > for blind users so long as they had a screen reader that would
> speak
> >> the
> >> >> > information displayed on the command-prompt screen.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > For those who are too young to remember, programs in that day
> >> >> > prompted
> >> >> the
> >> >> > user for input and the user responded in a back-and-forth dialog
> >> >> > fashion.
> >> >> > Once all of the input data was provided, the program ran and did
> >> >> > whatever
> >> >> > it was supposed to do.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Another way that information was provided to the program was in the
> >> form
> >> >> of
> >> >> > typed information (commonly called switches) provided by the user
> >> >> > when
> >> >> she
> >> >> > started the program running. Batch files were often created with a
> >> >> > simple
> >> >> > text editor to make this procedure less prone to typing errors.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The one area where I see the GUI being particularly useful for a
> >> >> > blind
> >> >> user
> >> >> > is the file selection dialog. The use of the GUI dialog eliminates
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > requirement to type long path and file names. However, if the disk
> is
> >> >> > organized in such a way as to keep the paths short, even this
> doesn't
> >> >> > appear to be a significant advantage.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > For those who don't know, and without getting into the technical
> >> details
> >> >> as
> >> >> > to why, there are major problems associated with creating
> accessible
> >> >> > user
> >> >> > interfaces when programming in Java. Using the SWT to create
> >> accessible
> >> >> > user interfaces significantly reduces the power of the Java
> >> programming
> >> >> > environment because it precludes the use of many excellent
> >> >> > programming
> >> >> > libraries.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > This causes me to wonder if, for those programs that are primarily
> >> >> intended
> >> >> > for use by blind and VI users, it might make sense to go backwards
> in
> >> >> time,
> >> >> > forego the GUI, and write those programs using the "old-fashioned"
> >> >> > prompt
> >> >> > and reply style of user interface. I would be interested in seeing
> >> some
> >> >> > discussion on this topic.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Dick Baldwin
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> >> >> > Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
> >> >> > http://www.DickBaldwin.com
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Professor of Computer Information Technology
> >> >> > Austin Community College
> >> >> > (512) 223-4758
> >> >> > mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> >> >> > http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > Blindmath mailing list
> >> >> > Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
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> for
> >> >> > Blindmath:
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mehgcap%40gmail.com
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Have a great day,
> >> >> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
> >> >> mehgcap at gmail.com; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> >>
> >>
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> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> >> > Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
> >> > http://www.DickBaldwin.com
> >> >
> >> > Professor of Computer Information Technology
> >> > Austin Community College
> >> > (512) 223-4758
> >> > mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> >> > http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Blindmath mailing list
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> >> > Blindmath:
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> >>
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> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Have a great day,
> >> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
> >> mehgcap at gmail.com; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> > Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
> > http://www.DickBaldwin.com
> >
> > Professor of Computer Information Technology
> > Austin Community College
> > (512) 223-4758
> > mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> > http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
> --
> Have a great day,
> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
> mehgcap at gmail.com; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>
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-- 
Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
http://www.DickBaldwin.com

Professor of Computer Information Technology
Austin Community College
(512) 223-4758
mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/