[Blindmath] How useful is a GUI to blind users?

Sat Jan 7 20:24:46 UTC 2012

Hello,
Personally I have never liked the results with WX, on Linux the 
accessibility has not been great in my experience. I do know it is used on 
windows with accessible results (eg. NVDA uses WX) so it may be fine if you 
only want to support a given platform.

Also I imagine the issues with SWT would also be present with WX, SWT is 
fairly popular as its part of the eclipse project and part of the rich 
client platform (RCP) and so almost the default choice for RCP developers. 
If SWT limits the libraries, I would imagine WX is even further off the 
beaten track than SWT within the Java community (scratches head, tries to 
think of a java project using WX, cannot think of one, many come to mind 
when talking SWT, RSSOwl, eclipse and kapmanager for the Kapten GPS are 
three which come to mind straight away, could name more with a bit of 
thought).

Michael Whapples

-----Original Message----- 
From: Alex Hall
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 8:06 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] How useful is a GUI to blind users?

Certainly I can understand sticking with the language you know best,
and that is why I brought up wx. I use it in Python and have never run
into accessibility problems. In fact, it is used in the Qwitter
project and it's forks, and the writer of Qwitter has an entire gui
wrapper based on it. I believe it can be used in java as well, and it
may be worth investigating. I am not familiar enough with making guis
in java to say whether or not you will run into problems with wx
similar to those you encountered in swt, but it might be worth a look.

On 1/7/12, Richard Baldwin <baldwin at dickbaldwin.com> wrote:
> I'm not familiar with wx. However, as I stated in an earlier post, each of
> us have our strong suites when it comes to programming environments. When
> programming for free on my own time, I prefer to use the programming
> environment in which I am most efficient.
>
> While I do program in C++, C#, and Python when when the need arises, I am
> most familiar with Java.  Having to switch from a familiar programming
> environment to one that is less familiar significantly degrades my ability
> to quickly and efficiently produce good programs.
>
> For example, Java and C# are very similar programming languages. Often the
> names of events, variables, and methods in the class libraries are the
> same, but with different upper and lower case usage. (After all, Microsoft
> had to do something to distinguish C# from Java.) Even with the
> similarities between the two languages, I can write the same program much
> more quickly in Java than in C# because I spend so much time in the C#
> documentation dealing with spelling and capitalization issues.
>
> Thanks for the feedback.
> Dick Baldwin
>
> On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Alex Hall <mehgcap at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I see your point now. In that case, I can understand how a prompt
>> interface is easier and more accessible. However, I can also see a lot
>> of errors happening if someone mistypes a command or misses an
>> instruction on what to type. Using screen readers, words are often
>> chopped up as they break to fit the command prompt window, necessating
>> the use of review commands (review mode in nvda, jaws cursor in jaws).
>> At least in jaws, users must then switch into the jaws cursor, read or
>> re-read the text of a prompt or help message, then switch back and
>> type the command. In a gui, all the user needs to do is select from a
>> menu or list, or tab to a control to hear it's prompt.
>> While I can see the value of a command prompt interface, I have
>> usually found them to be frustrating to work with compared to a
>> properly constructed gui. Sometimes, of course, there is nothing as
>> nice as being able to open a command window and do whatever you need
>> to do, but most times I would choose a gui. Writing in java seems to
>> be the difficulty here. Have you looked into an alternative gui
>> library? I read that wx has java bindings, so that may be a better way
>> to go, plus it will work on all platforms. Better still, what about a
>> language like python (cross-platform and much smaller than java) or
>> cpp?
>>
>> On 1/7/12, Richard Baldwin <baldwin at dickbaldwin.com> wrote:
>> > I am speaking specifically of programs that are specialized for blind
>> > and
>> > possibly VI users, with particular emphasis being on blind users. For
>> > example, there are many drawing programs that sighted users can use, 
>> > but
>> > which are not not accessible for blind users. Some of them would be
>> > accessible for VI users using magnifiers, etc.
>> >
>> > I have written and published a drawing program that blind users can use
>> to
>> > draw just about anything they can imagine, but sighted users might not
>> want
>> > to use the program because there are better alternatives for sighted
>> users.
>> > There may also be better alternatives for VI users.
>> >
>> > The user interface was written using SWT and it currently only runs
>> > under
>> > Windows. Additional programming effort and a considerable maintenance
>> > effort would be required to make it compatible with other platforms. A
>> > prompt-reply interface would have been much easier to write, and, I
>> > believe, would run on any platform that supports Java without any
>> > additional programming or maintenance effort. And, I believe that, with
>> > some thought and a good design, it could be made almost as efficient
>> > from
>> > the user's viewpoint.
>> >
>> > Amanda has written and has published a program that will convert an SVG
>> > drawing file into a SIG file for embossing on machines that use the
>> > QuickTac software. I doubt that many sighted users would have any
>> interest
>> > in that program, but I expect that quite a few blind users will be
>> > interested in using it, particularly if the new 25-dpi Phoenix embosser
>> > supports the QuickTac SIG file format.
>> >
>> > Once again, the GUI for Amanda's program was written using SWT, and it
>> > currently runs only on Windows. Additional programming effort would be
>> > required to make it compatible with other platforms. The user interface
>> for
>> > that program is very simple. I believe that if the interface had been
>> > written as a prompt-reply interface, the program would be compatible
>> > with
>> > any platform that supports Java.
>> >
>> > Quite a lot of cleanup work is often required to convert a typical
>> > bitmap
>> > file into a file that can be embossed to produce a meaningful tactile
>> > image. I am currently working on a program which I hope will make it
>> > possible for blind users to do a reasonable job of doing the cleanup
>> > work
>> > and converting bitmap image files into SVG files, and with Amanda's
>> > program, into SIG files, for embossing without sighted assistance. Once
>> > again, I doubt that most sighted users would be interested in using 
>> > this
>> > program, but it could be very useful for blind students who need to
>> emboss
>> > the images in a typical textbook to use in combination with the
>> > descriptions of the images in the textbook.
>> >
>> > So, my question has to do with specialized programs that are designed
>> > for
>> > use by blind and VI users, with the major emphasis being on blind 
>> > users.
>> As
>> > you point out, other alternatives are often available for VI users.
>> >
>> > Thanks for the response.
>> >
>> > Dick Baldwin
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 12:03 PM, Alex Hall <mehgcap at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> My first thought is low-vision users who need accessibility for screen
>> >> readers or magnification, but can still benefit from a good gui. Also,
>> >> many tasks are significantly sped up by using keyboard shortcuts and
>> >> finding functions in dropdown menus, and you lose that when you use a
>> >> command prompt. Some tasks simply require a gui, too, such as sound
>> >> editing, web browsing (and, from there, reading of many emails), or
>> >> media playback (especially for skipping through tracks).
>> >> All that aside, there is still the overall question of specialization:
>> >> do you want to write a program that anyone can use, or do you want to
>> >> write a program specifically for blind users that no one else can (or
>> >> at least would want) to use? I see this as being similar to
>> >> specialized notetakers. It used to be that they were a good and even
>> >> necessary solution, but nowadays you can pick up a braille display and
>> >> an iPhone and have almost as much functionality for less money and
>> >> without dealing with all the headaches of supporting a highly
>> >> specialized platform (high overhead, long waits for updates, missing
>> >> features, and so on). Instead, you can get access to most apps that
>> >> anyone else has, plus the lower costs of the equipment and any
>> >> protection plans. When programming, I would nearly always take the
>> >> program that everyone else is using over a highly specialized program
>> >> that only a few are using. There are a very few exceptions to this,
>> >> the Twitter client Qwitter and its forks being one, but that is mostly
>> >> because it is the first program I tried and I have not yet tried, say,
>> >> the Twitter website with the GM script written by James Teh to enhance
>> >> NVDA's compatibility with that interface.
>> >>
>> >> On 1/7/12, Richard Baldwin <baldwin at dickbaldwin.com> wrote:
>> >> > It occurred to me the other day that prior to the advent of the
>> >> > Graphical
>> >> > User Interface (GUI), the user interfaces for all programs were
>> >> accessible
>> >> > for blind users so long as they had a screen reader that would speak
>> the
>> >> > information displayed on the command-prompt screen.
>> >> >
>> >> > For those who are too young to remember, programs in that day
>> >> > prompted
>> >> the
>> >> > user for input and the user responded in a back-and-forth dialog
>> >> > fashion.
>> >> > Once all of the input data was provided, the program ran and did
>> >> > whatever
>> >> > it was supposed to do.
>> >> >
>> >> > Another way that information was provided to the program was in the
>> form
>> >> of
>> >> > typed information (commonly called switches) provided by the user
>> >> > when
>> >> she
>> >> > started the program running. Batch files were often created with a
>> >> > simple
>> >> > text editor to make this procedure less prone to typing errors.
>> >> >
>> >> > The one area where I see the GUI being particularly useful for a
>> >> > blind
>> >> user
>> >> > is the file selection dialog. The use of the GUI dialog eliminates
>> >> > the
>> >> > requirement to type long path and file names. However, if the disk 
>> >> > is
>> >> > organized in such a way as to keep the paths short, even this 
>> >> > doesn't
>> >> > appear to be a significant advantage.
>> >> >
>> >> > For those who don't know, and without getting into the technical
>> details
>> >> as
>> >> > to why, there are major problems associated with creating accessible
>> >> > user
>> >> > interfaces when programming in Java. Using the SWT to create
>> accessible
>> >> > user interfaces significantly reduces the power of the Java
>> programming
>> >> > environment because it precludes the use of many excellent
>> >> > programming
>> >> > libraries.
>> >> >
>> >> > This causes me to wonder if, for those programs that are primarily
>> >> intended
>> >> > for use by blind and VI users, it might make sense to go backwards 
>> >> > in
>> >> time,
>> >> > forego the GUI, and write those programs using the "old-fashioned"
>> >> > prompt
>> >> > and reply style of user interface. I would be interested in seeing
>> some
>> >> > discussion on this topic.
>> >> >
>> >> > Dick Baldwin
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>> >> > Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>> >> > http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>> >> >
>> >> > Professor of Computer Information Technology
>> >> > Austin Community College
>> >> > (512) 223-4758
>> >> > mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> >> > http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Blindmath mailing list
>> >> > Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>> >> > for
>> >> > Blindmath:
>> >> >
>> >>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mehgcap%40gmail.com
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Have a great day,
>> >> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>> >> mehgcap at gmail.com; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Blindmath mailing list
>> >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> Blindmath:
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>> > Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>> > http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>> >
>> > Professor of Computer Information Technology
>> > Austin Community College
>> > (512) 223-4758
>> > mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>> > http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Blindmath mailing list
>> > Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > Blindmath:
>> >
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mehgcap%40gmail.com
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Have a great day,
>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>> mehgcap at gmail.com; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Blindmath:
>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>
> Professor of Computer Information Technology
> Austin Community College
> (512) 223-4758
> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Blindmath:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mehgcap%40gmail.com
>

-- 
Have a great day,
Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
mehgcap at gmail.com; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap

_______________________________________________
Blindmath mailing list
Blindmath at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
Blindmath:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com 