[Blindmath] Graphics

Tue Jan 31 19:47:59 UTC 2012

Hi Dick et al.,

I'm intrigued by your slide brewer.

One reason I love LaTeX and therefore html is that I don't worry 
about where things are. As long as I don't do anything too silly, the 
content is conveyed to the students in a suitable form.

I detest power point, but it remains accessible (to a certain 
degree), and I can use LaTeX via add-on packages. I have however been 
searching for ways to generate html (and therefore xml) quickly for 
new presentations. My level of frustration with Power point means I 
have tried some rather interesting solutions.

I have tried Beamer of course but as long as the output files are pdf 
then I am not interested.

The topic of making accessible slides for seminars and lectures has 
come up on this list before, albeit a few years ago. The problem 
remains unchanged since that time. I am wondering if your slide 
brewer is accessible and therefore useful to me and other blindies on 
this list.

Jonathan

At 07:58 a.m. 1/02/2012, you wrote:
>As long as I am rambling, I will also add a few comments regarding what I
>consider to be good practice for non-image slides.
>
>To begin with, I don't use Power Point. Many years ago, as a revolt against
>the high cost of Microsoft Office software, I wrote my own homebrew slide
>maker and slide viewer system. In my system, each slide is simply a small
>XHTML file with links to the next and previous slides. A door can be opened
>on the left side of the viewer exposing links to every slide, thereby
>facilitating navigation beyond the simple next and previous links.
>
>Therefore, students don't need to purchase Microsoft Office to view my
>slides on their own computers. Any reasonably modern browser will do the
>job.
>
>Also, I don't use fancy transitions, fancy Power Point borders, etc. My
>slides contain only two types of content: text and images.
>
>I typically use a split-screen presentation approach where the left half of
>the screen shows the current slide and the right half of the screen shows
>material that was deposited there earlier. The material on the right could
>be an image, it could be programming source code, it could be anything that
>I want to refer to later as the lecture progresses. In addition to listings
>and images appearing in slides along with explanatory text, my system also
>creates a separate XHTML file for each listing and each image so that I can
>open them on the right side of the screen and refer to them later.
>
>All of that having being said, most of the slides contain only text. And
>that text is mostly in the form of bullets or important points. As the
>lecture progresses and I bring new slides up on the screen, I expect the
>students to be able to read the bullets or the important points on their
>own. My verbal presentation is to elaborate on those points.
>
>A blind student can't read the bullets. Therefore, it is extremely
>important to provide the blind students with complete copies of the slides
>sufficiently in advance of the presentation to allow them to convert the
>slides into an accessible format, which they can use in the classroom
>during the presentation.
>
>If the student has access to a computer with a browser in the classroom,
>all that is necessary is for the student to bring the slides to the
>classroom on a flash drive. If the student uses a refreshable Braille pad
>with the computer, all the better because the student can read the slides
>without the need for ear buds and an audio screen reader. If the college
>doesn't provide a computer for the student in the classroom, the student
>can bring a laptop to class.
>
>If the student can't bring a laptop to class, that student can convert the
>slides to Braille on paper provided the slides are available to the student
>sufficiently far in advance. The important thing is to make certain that
>the student has an electronic copy of the slides sufficiently far in
>advance of the presentation to facilitate one of the accessibility routes
>described above.
>
>Another thing that is very important and can sometimes be difficult to
>achieve is to make each slide easily identifiable so that the blind student
>can stay in synch with the lecture, and can get back in synch if
>synchronization is lost.
>
>The reason this can be difficult is that I often make changes to some of
>the slides shortly before the class begins. If the student will use a
>computer to view the slides, this can be handled rather easily by making
>certain that the student receives and is working from the latest set of
>slides during the presentation. If the student is working from preprinted
>Braille on paper, it is more of a problem.
>
>Bottom line: Whether the lecture slides consist of text, images, or a
>combination of the two, instructors must make certain that blind students
>receive a copy of the slides which have been made as accessible as
>practical before the class begins.
>
>Some slides simply cannot be made accessible for blind students. For
>example, in one of my courses, some of the slides embed interactive Java
>applets, which may not be accessible due to Java accessibility issues. Even
>in those cases, however, screen shots of the applet in use can be provided
>for conversion to tactile format for use by the blind student.
>
>That's probably enough rambling for this session.
>
>Dick Baldwin
>
>On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Jonathan Godfrey <a.j.godfrey at massey.ac.nz
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I agree with John and Dick here. Good teaching is often making the
> > unnatural seem natural and the group of students I deal with (none blind so
> > far) is very diverse.
> >
> > I have found that the lecturers who used "this", "that", "here", and
> > "there" were also the ones that didn't seem to be able to use their legs
> > very well. They were stuck in the mould of holding a pen or a mouse
> > (previously chalk) and their pointing was contained to the objects within
> > the length of their arms of any pointers that might be in the lecture room.
> > Thankfully the laser pointer didn't seem to be used by many of my 
> lecturers.
> >
> > As my drawings are a little like cartoons, perhaps even heading towards
> > abstract art, I don't risk using those dreaded words without a more useful
> > indicator of what I am speaking about. It is made more natural by moving
> > away from the board often into the audience part of the room. In a large
> > lecture theatre (100 students is small) this was less natural than in the
> > more common teaching room I use which holds at most 20 students all sitting
> > at computers. I do try to point at things on the power point slides but my
> > accuracy is somewhat questionable. To cover this flaw I just move further
> > away from the board and force myself to use words. In the second half of
> > 2012, I will be teaching a class that exceeds the capacity of the largest
> > lecture theatre on campus. We will be in one room and a second room will
> > have the same material put up on the data show in there. Those students
> > will not see anything I might do with my hands so the words will 
> be crucial.
> >
> > It's only recently that some of my former first-year students have told me
> > what was working in the classroom. (They're now post graduates with more
> > confidence.) My descriptions that didn't involve them watching my hands all
> > the time meant they didn't miss things as they looked down to write their
> > notes.
> >
> > A final comment about the styles of learning. John mentioned audio and
> > visual learners. There are also those students that need to do a task to
> > learn it. Kinesthetic learners are perhaps the worst off in a lecture room
> > as they need to take the knowledge out of the classroom and try it out for
> > themselves to really understand. In a small tutorial sized computer lab,
> > the kinesthetic learner really comes into their own as the ability to do
> > the task is right there with them. I love teaching in the computer lab
> > because of the varied opportunities to engage with my students. They are
> > forced to drive their own computers to engage with the class as I can't do
> > it for them.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 06:43 a.m. 1/02/2012, you wrote:
> >
> >> Interesting discussion.  I should point out that precision in lecturing is
> >> not just good for blind students - it is good for all students.  I have
> >> heard thousands of lectures in my life and find that lecturers that I find
> >> particularly good/bad are also perceived that way by sighted colleagues.
> >>
> >> I am frequently asked what a lecturer should do to make his lecture
> >> accessible to me.  My answer is that a really good lecturer will present
> >> material that needs no audio for a visual learner and needs no visual for
> >> an
> >> audio learner.  The only exception to my rule are visual jokes - jokes
> >> needing explanation are generally not funny, so it is up to the person
> >> sitting next to me to explain visual jokes to me.
> >>
> >> And finally, special educators find that approximately 40% of students in
> >> an
> >> average classroom have some kind of learning difficulty.  What is useful
> >> to
> >> the 60% is essential to the 40%.  So precise lecturing helps many more
> >> students than those who are blind.
> >>
> >> Good work Dick!
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org<blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
> >> On
> >>  Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 8:52 AM
> >> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Graphics
> >>
> >> Michael's point is a good one and one for which there are no easy answers.
> >>
> >> When teaching a mixed class with one or more blind students and mostly
> >> sighted students, the instructor must walk a fine line between being so
> >> verbally accommodating of the blind students that they begin to feel self
> >> conscious and not being accommodating enough for the blind students to
> >> understand the material. It also helps a lot when the blind students are
> >> not shy about asking for clarification. Fortunately, at the college where
> >> I
> >> teach, we don't have classes with hundreds of students. I typically have
> >> somewhere between 15 and 24 students in a class and am able to respond to
> >> questions from both blind and sighted students.
> >>
> >> The instructor must constantly remind himself or herself that there are
> >> people who can't see the slides and use terms like "near the lower left
> >> corner", "the vector labeled B with its tail at coordinates 2,2", "the
> >> rectangle in the center that is colored red", etc. It is not an easy task
> >> and I am far from perfect, but I try.
> >>
> >> I currently have one blind student in one course and a seriously visually
> >> impaired student in a different course. The blind student has been
> >> enrolled
> >> in several of my previous courses, but this is the first one in which I
> >> have had an opportunity to develop the material from the ground up with
> >> blind accessibility as one of the objectives. That is also very helpful
> >>
> >> One of those students is very good about visiting during office hours
> >> before class to discuss the upcoming graphics material and that also helps
> >> a lot.
> >>
> >> Dick Baldwin
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > In a large lecture of well over a hundred students, its a big ask.
> >> >
> >> > Michael whapples
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message----- From: Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 2:44 PM
> >> >
> >> > To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> >> > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Graphics
> >> >
> >> >       Can't the blind student speak up and ask? I always did.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
> >> [mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nf**bnet.org <http://nfbnet.org><
> >> blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>>]
> >> > On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 4:14 AM
> >> > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> >> > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Graphics
> >> >
> >> > Yes I agree with this about not wanting people listening to
> >> pre-recording
> >> > audio while you are trying to explain the graph. However that in itself
> >> is
> >> > a
> >> > form of audio-touch, in a loose sense, as the student is getting audio
> >> > (you)
> >> > explaining the graph. The ideal situation might be that the student has
> >> > someone sitting next to them to help guide them round the tactile
> >> diagram.
> >> >
> >> > Richard, here is a question for you, one real problem I kept coming
> >> across
> >> > while studying physics was the tutors using phrases like "this part of
> >> the
> >> > graph", how many "this", "that", "here" and "there" do you use? If one
> >> > cannot see the graph you are pointing at, where is here? Unfortunately
> >> its
> >> > such a natural way of talking that even when you are aware of it you can
> >> > slip back into those phrases where one relies on seeing the pointing to
> >> > understand the talking. I think my point here is that sometimes the
> >> talking
> >> > alone is not as useful as you may initially think. Its not an argument
> >> for
> >> > sticking in the ear-buds, but rather that may be the blind student does
> >> > need
> >> > some extra help with finding "here".
> >> >
> >> > Michael Whapples
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: Richard Baldwin
> >> > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 3:57 PM
> >> > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> >> > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Graphics
> >> >
> >> > I will make one comment relative to audio-touch. Every technology has
> >> its
> >> > good points and its bad points. While audio-touch may be the best
> >> solution
> >> > in some situations, it may not be the best solution in other situations.
> >> > Also, until we see audio-touch applications on tablet computers, it will
> >> > continue to be the most expensive solution in most situations.
> >> >
> >> > For example, if I am in a classroom containing a mixture of blind and
> >> > sighted students, and I am using a graphic on a slide that is projected
> >> on
> >> > a screen at the front of the room to explain the characteristics of a
> >> > damped sine wave exhibiting an exponential decay, I would prefer that
> >> the
> >> > blind students have good quality tactile images of the slide and that
> >> they
> >> > be concentrating on my explanation of the shape and other
> >> characteristics
> >> > of the graphic as opposed to wearing ear buds and listening to
> >> pre-recorded
> >> > messages about the graphic.
> >> >
> >> > There is a time and a place for everything, and the lecture classroom is
> >> > not necessarily the place for wearing ear buds.
> >> >
> >> > Dick Baldwin
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 6:25 AM, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >  Hello,
> >> >> A couple of things in response.
> >> >>
> >> >> Firstly the swell paper thing, probably in that one message where I say
> >> >> IVEO can be used with swell paper, it probably was left to be implied
> >> by
> >> >> the reader that it would be subjected to the limitations of swell
> >> paper,
> >> I
> >> >> didn't feel like typing it out on a touchscreen. However I would say,
> >> >> while
> >> >> it cannot do colour/shading like the tiger, it is possible to have ways
> >> of
> >> >> differentiating between different regions with swell paper by using
> >> >> different textures (eg. horizontal lines, vertical lines, dots, etc).
> >> >> Admittedly applying a texture to an area is probably more complicated
> >> than
> >> >> using colours or shading, but if ViewPlus wants to make IVEO better
> >> with
> >> >> swell paper it might be a feature (apply texture) worth considering,
> >> but
> >> >> whether ViewPlus wants to add such a feature is up to ViewPlus.
> >> >>
> >> >> The other point or may be question is may be of more interest. Your
> >> >> comments on why ViewPlus and you focussed on audio-touch instead of
> >> just
> >> >> tactile diagrams is interesting to read, I don't think I would dispute
> >> >> anything there. What I am left with is a slight question of why did you
> >> go
> >> >> audio-touch instead of plain audio, or may be more popularly called
> >> >> sonification? Quite a number of people have gone down the pure
> >> >> sonification
> >> >> route in trying to make visual images accessible, so there must be
> >> >> something desirable in pure sonification but why did you feel the touch
> >> >> part is also important? Personally I have always found pure
> >> sonification
> >> >> difficult to master, I just seem to have some sort of disconnect or gap
> >> >> between the audio and the spatial, so find it very difficult to
> >> visualise
> >> >> anything from passively listening to audio.
> >> >>
> >> >> Please do let us know more as that project progresses.
> >> >>
> >> >> Michael Whapples
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: John Gardner
> >> >> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 7:24 PM
> >> >> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> >> >> Subject: [Blindmath] Graphics
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I agree with Dick Baldwin that at the present time, a blind person
> >> needs
> >> >> sighted assistance to access most graphical information.  I described a
> >> >> way
> >> >> that a blind person who has IVEO and a ViewPlus embosser can access
> >> >> graphics, but it is tedious and gives only partial access.  Even if
> >> Jamal
> >> >> and Dick could drive a process that could reliably isolate and process
> >> >> images, I am skeptical that, in the end, most images will be accessible
> >> >> without sighted assistance anyhow.  We have to face the physical fact
> >> that
> >> >> fingers are not a fully adequate substitute for vision even for the
> >> most
> >> >> competent braille/tactile graphics readers.
> >> >>
> >> >> My vision of graphics is that they should be published in an accessible
> >> >> format, and I have devoted much of my energy for nearly 20 years to
> >> >> developing methods that have some chance of actually happening.  I'm
> >> not
> >> >> unhappy with what ViewPlus has achieved, but I sure wish we could speed
> >> up
> >> >> the process and bring down the cost to end users.
> >> >>
> >> >> ViewPlus expects soon to be starting a new project funded partly by the
> >> >> DIAGRAM project to evaluate usability of SVG graphics accessed by
> >> >> audio/touch - which is what IVEO is all about.  Assuming that
> >> preliminary
> >> >> information is correct and the grant is approved, I will soon be
> >> looking
> >> >> for
> >> >> committed volunteers and suspect that several of you would like to
> >> >> volunteer.  I particularly encourage people who have access to a
> >> ViewPlus
> >> >> embosser to volunteer.  Those without such access can still
> >> participate,
> >> >> but
> >> >> they'll need to wait a few days for their tactiles to arrive in the
> >> mail.
> >> >> By the way, Michael is right that swell paper works too but only for
> >> line
> >> >> art.  Anything with color or texture is just a mess with swell paper.
> >> >>
> >> >> The purpose of the grant is for volunteers to evaluate a number of SVG
> >> >> files
> >> >> per month and to submit some of their own images to be "made
> >> accessible".
> >> >> Good accessibility means that text speaks when touched, math is spoken
> >> >> properly, and important graphic objects speak their titles when
> >> touched.
> >> >> The more complex the graphic, the more important it is for graphic
> >> objects
> >> >> to be labeled.  Processing of color beyond the simple default for
> >> ViewPlus
> >> >> embossers would help, particularly for images that are not
> >> >> well-represented
> >> >> in gray scale.
> >> >>
> >> >> More information will be forthcoming when the project starts.
> >> >>
> >> >> One final comment.  Audio-touch access requires a computer and some
> >> >> external
> >> >> equipment to use.  Why not make graphics accessible by touch alone?  It
> >> is
> >> >> clearly possible for experts to make graphical information accessible
> >> as
> >> >> stand-alone tactile graphics.  Generally that graphic needs to be
> >> >> considerably simplified and needs braille labels and a braille
> >> >> description.
> >> >> It is costly, because a trained expert needs to make the tactile
> >> version.
> >> >> In addition, surprisingly few blind people can read it anyhow.  On the
> >> >> other
> >> >> hand, it is much easier to convert a graphic to SVG and add the
> >> meta-data
> >> >> necessary to make it accessible.  Simplification is unnecessary. The
> >> >> learning curve for both the creator and user is not high, and anybody
> >> who
> >> >> wants to learn can do it.  Finally it is possible in principle for
> >> almost
> >> >> any mainstream graphic to be published in SVG with that meta-data
> >> included
> >> >> so that it is automatically accessible.  That is just not the case for
> >> >> stand-alone tactiles.  These are the reasons that I have concentrated
> >> on
> >> >> audio-touch methods and will let others make stand-alone tactiles.
> >> >>
> >> >> John Gardner
> >> >> ______________________________******__
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> John Gardner       |  President |  ViewPlus
> >> >> 541.754.4002 x 220 |  www.viewplus.com
> >> >> ______________________________******__
> >>
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> >> >> copying, disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly
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> >> >> please notify the sender and delete the message.
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> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> >> > Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
> >> > http://www.DickBaldwin.com
> >> >
> >> > Professor of Computer Information Technology
> >> > Austin Community College
> >> > (512) 223-4758
> >> > mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> >> > 
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> >> >
> >> rebecca.pickrell%40tasc.com<ht**tp://nfbnet.org/mailman/**
> >> options/blindmath_nfbn <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbn>
> >> 
> et.org/rebecca.pickrell%**40tasc.com<http://et.org/rebecca.pickrell%40tasc.com>
> >> >
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> blindmath_nfbnet.org/m<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/m>
> >> whapples%40aim.com>
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> >> >
> >> baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com<http**://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/**
> >> blindmath_nfbnet <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet>
> >> .org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com**>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> >> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
> >> http://www.DickBaldwin.com
> >>
> >> Professor of Computer Information Technology
> >> Austin Community College
> >> (512) 223-4758
> >> mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
> >> http://www.austincc.edu/**baldwin/ <http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/>
> >> ______________________________**_________________
> >> Blindmath mailing list
> >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >> 
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> Blindmath:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
> >> 
> john.gardner%40orst.e<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/john.gardner%40orst.e>
> >> du
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ______________________________**_________________
> >> Blindmath mailing list
> >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
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> >> Blindmath:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
> >> 
> a.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz>
> >>
> >
> > _____
> > Dr A. Jonathan R. Godfrey
> > Lecturer in Statistics
> > Institute of Fundamental Sciences
> > Massey University
> > Palmerston North
> >
> > Office: Science Tower B Room 3.15
> > Phone: +64-6-356 9099 ext 7705
> > Mobile: +64-29-538-9814
> > Home Address: 22 Bond St, Palm. Nth.
> > Home Phone: +64-6-353 2224 (Just think FLEABAG)
> >
> > ______________________________**_________________
> > Blindmath mailing list
> > Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > 
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org>
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > Blindmath:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/**
> > 
> baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/baldwin%40dickbaldwin.com>
> >
>
>
>
>--
>Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
>Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
>http://www.DickBaldwin.com
>
>Professor of Computer Information Technology
>Austin Community College
>(512) 223-4758
>mailto:Baldwin at DickBaldwin.com
>http://www.austincc.edu/baldwin/
>_______________________________________________
>Blindmath mailing list
>Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Blindmath:
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz

_____
Dr A. Jonathan R. Godfrey
Lecturer in Statistics
Institute of Fundamental Sciences
Massey University
Palmerston North

Office: Science Tower B Room 3.15
Phone: +64-6-356 9099 ext 7705
Mobile: +64-29-538-9814
Home Address: 22 Bond St, Palm. Nth.
Home Phone: +64-6-353 2224 (Just think FLEABAG) 