[Blindmath] Graphics

Tue Jan 31 20:28:51 UTC 2012

Yes, this has been my experience too.
I've had fellow students tell me that they are glad I've spoken up because the lecturer wasn't being clear, they just thought they were the only ones not "getting it".
And I've had lecturers tell me that having me in their classes made them better lecturers, that they didn't realize there was a more clear way to convey the material.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Gardner
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 12:43 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Graphics

Interesting discussion.  I should point out that precision in lecturing is
not just good for blind students - it is good for all students.  I have
heard thousands of lectures in my life and find that lecturers that I find
particularly good/bad are also perceived that way by sighted colleagues.

I am frequently asked what a lecturer should do to make his lecture
accessible to me.  My answer is that a really good lecturer will present
material that needs no audio for a visual learner and needs no visual for an
audio learner.  The only exception to my rule are visual jokes - jokes
needing explanation are generally not funny, so it is up to the person
sitting next to me to explain visual jokes to me.

And finally, special educators find that approximately 40% of students in an
average classroom have some kind of learning difficulty.  What is useful to
the 60% is essential to the 40%.  So precise lecturing helps many more
students than those who are blind.

Good work Dick!

John

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Richard Baldwin
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 8:52 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Graphics

Michael's point is a good one and one for which there are no easy answers.

When teaching a mixed class with one or more blind students and mostly
sighted students, the instructor must walk a fine line between being so
verbally accommodating of the blind students that they begin to feel self
conscious and not being accommodating enough for the blind students to
understand the material. It also helps a lot when the blind students are
not shy about asking for clarification. Fortunately, at the college where I
teach, we don't have classes with hundreds of students. I typically have
somewhere between 15 and 24 students in a class and am able to respond to
questions from both blind and sighted students.

The instructor must constantly remind himself or herself that there are
people who can't see the slides and use terms like "near the lower left
corner", "the vector labeled B with its tail at coordinates 2,2", "the
rectangle in the center that is colored red", etc. It is not an easy task
and I am far from perfect, but I try.

I currently have one blind student in one course and a seriously visually
impaired student in a different course. The blind student has been enrolled
in several of my previous courses, but this is the first one in which I
have had an opportunity to develop the material from the ground up with
blind accessibility as one of the objectives. That is also very helpful

One of those students is very good about visiting during office hours
before class to discuss the upcoming graphics material and that also helps
a lot.

Dick Baldwin

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com> wrote:

> In a large lecture of well over a hundred students, its a big ask.
>
> Michael whapples
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 2:44 PM
>
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Graphics
>
>       Can't the blind student speak up and ask? I always did.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:blindmath-bounces@**nfbnet.org<blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
> On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 4:14 AM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Graphics
>
> Yes I agree with this about not wanting people listening to pre-recording
> audio while you are trying to explain the graph. However that in itself is
> a
> form of audio-touch, in a loose sense, as the student is getting audio
> (you)
> explaining the graph. The ideal situation might be that the student has
> someone sitting next to them to help guide them round the tactile diagram.
>
> Richard, here is a question for you, one real problem I kept coming across
> while studying physics was the tutors using phrases like "this part of the
> graph", how many "this", "that", "here" and "there" do you use? If one
> cannot see the graph you are pointing at, where is here? Unfortunately its
> such a natural way of talking that even when you are aware of it you can
> slip back into those phrases where one relies on seeing the pointing to
> understand the talking. I think my point here is that sometimes the
talking
> alone is not as useful as you may initially think. Its not an argument for
> sticking in the ear-buds, but rather that may be the blind student does
> need
> some extra help with finding "here".
>
> Michael Whapples
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Baldwin
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 3:57 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Graphics
>
> I will make one comment relative to audio-touch. Every technology has its
> good points and its bad points. While audio-touch may be the best solution
> in some situations, it may not be the best solution in other situations.
> Also, until we see audio-touch applications on tablet computers, it will
> continue to be the most expensive solution in most situations.
>
> For example, if I am in a classroom containing a mixture of blind and
> sighted students, and I am using a graphic on a slide that is projected on
> a screen at the front of the room to explain the characteristics of a
> damped sine wave exhibiting an exponential decay, I would prefer that the
> blind students have good quality tactile images of the slide and that they
> be concentrating on my explanation of the shape and other characteristics
> of the graphic as opposed to wearing ear buds and listening to
pre-recorded
> messages about the graphic.
>
> There is a time and a place for everything, and the lecture classroom is
> not necessarily the place for wearing ear buds.
>
> Dick Baldwin
>
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 6:25 AM, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com>
> wrote:
>
>  Hello,
>> A couple of things in response.
>>
>> Firstly the swell paper thing, probably in that one message where I say
>> IVEO can be used with swell paper, it probably was left to be implied by
>> the reader that it would be subjected to the limitations of swell paper,
I
>> didn't feel like typing it out on a touchscreen. However I would say,
>> while
>> it cannot do colour/shading like the tiger, it is possible to have ways
of
>> differentiating between different regions with swell paper by using
>> different textures (eg. horizontal lines, vertical lines, dots, etc).
>> Admittedly applying a texture to an area is probably more complicated
than
>> using colours or shading, but if ViewPlus wants to make IVEO better with
>> swell paper it might be a feature (apply texture) worth considering, but
>> whether ViewPlus wants to add such a feature is up to ViewPlus.
>>
>> The other point or may be question is may be of more interest. Your
>> comments on why ViewPlus and you focussed on audio-touch instead of just
>> tactile diagrams is interesting to read, I don't think I would dispute
>> anything there. What I am left with is a slight question of why did you
go
>> audio-touch instead of plain audio, or may be more popularly called
>> sonification? Quite a number of people have gone down the pure
>> sonification
>> route in trying to make visual images accessible, so there must be
>> something desirable in pure sonification but why did you feel the touch
>> part is also important? Personally I have always found pure sonification
>> difficult to master, I just seem to have some sort of disconnect or gap
>> between the audio and the spatial, so find it very difficult to visualise
>> anything from passively listening to audio.
>>
>> Please do let us know more as that project progresses.
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: John Gardner
>> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 7:24 PM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> Subject: [Blindmath] Graphics
>>
>>
>> I agree with Dick Baldwin that at the present time, a blind person needs
>> sighted assistance to access most graphical information.  I described a
>> way
>> that a blind person who has IVEO and a ViewPlus embosser can access
>> graphics, but it is tedious and gives only partial access.  Even if Jamal
>> and Dick could drive a process that could reliably isolate and process
>> images, I am skeptical that, in the end, most images will be accessible
>> without sighted assistance anyhow.  We have to face the physical fact
that
>> fingers are not a fully adequate substitute for vision even for the most
>> competent braille/tactile graphics readers.
>>
>> My vision of graphics is that they should be published in an accessible
>> format, and I have devoted much of my energy for nearly 20 years to
>> developing methods that have some chance of actually happening.  I'm not
>> unhappy with what ViewPlus has achieved, but I sure wish we could speed
up
>> the process and bring down the cost to end users.
>>
>> ViewPlus expects soon to be starting a new project funded partly by the
>> DIAGRAM project to evaluate usability of SVG graphics accessed by
>> audio/touch - which is what IVEO is all about.  Assuming that preliminary
>> information is correct and the grant is approved, I will soon be looking
>> for
>> committed volunteers and suspect that several of you would like to
>> volunteer.  I particularly encourage people who have access to a ViewPlus
>> embosser to volunteer.  Those without such access can still participate,
>> but
>> they'll need to wait a few days for their tactiles to arrive in the mail.
>> By the way, Michael is right that swell paper works too but only for line
>> art.  Anything with color or texture is just a mess with swell paper.
>>
>> The purpose of the grant is for volunteers to evaluate a number of SVG
>> files
>> per month and to submit some of their own images to be "made accessible".
>> Good accessibility means that text speaks when touched, math is spoken
>> properly, and important graphic objects speak their titles when touched.
>> The more complex the graphic, the more important it is for graphic
objects
>> to be labeled.  Processing of color beyond the simple default for
ViewPlus
>> embossers would help, particularly for images that are not
>> well-represented
>> in gray scale.
>>
>> More information will be forthcoming when the project starts.
>>
>> One final comment.  Audio-touch access requires a computer and some
>> external
>> equipment to use.  Why not make graphics accessible by touch alone?  It
is
>> clearly possible for experts to make graphical information accessible as
>> stand-alone tactile graphics.  Generally that graphic needs to be
>> considerably simplified and needs braille labels and a braille
>> description.
>> It is costly, because a trained expert needs to make the tactile version.
>> In addition, surprisingly few blind people can read it anyhow.  On the
>> other
>> hand, it is much easier to convert a graphic to SVG and add the meta-data
>> necessary to make it accessible.  Simplification is unnecessary. The
>> learning curve for both the creator and user is not high, and anybody who
>> wants to learn can do it.  Finally it is possible in principle for almost
>> any mainstream graphic to be published in SVG with that meta-data
included
>> so that it is automatically accessible.  That is just not the case for
>> stand-alone tactiles.  These are the reasons that I have concentrated on
>> audio-touch methods and will let others make stand-alone tactiles.
>>
>> John Gardner
>> ______________________________****__
>>
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>> 541.754.4002 x 220 |  www.viewplus.com
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> --
> Richard G. Baldwin (Dick Baldwin)
> Home of Baldwin's on-line Java Tutorials
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>
> Professor of Computer Information Technology
> Austin Community College
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