[Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays

Thu May 10 12:09:56 UTC 2012

If and when (cheering on Neil), we can make MathPlayer work insideof
MS Word, at least then we are in a position where you can simply
emboss the file (given that the MathML to Nemeth convertion is of
sufficient quality), and have a paper copy of the exam next to you in
braille.
That way you hae access to braille and speech from the same document
(as opposed to the current process of having to expert it to a
web-page and then read it, which just adds complications to the set
up).
Not perfect, perfect would be to have on-the-fly translation to the
braille display to go along with the reading of the equation as well
as shorcut keys or other convenient ways to explore the equation one
part at a time (a pat being only material inside a given entity such
as a fraction, square root, integral or parenths).
Ok, we could take it further and say perfect would be a multi-line
braille display or simply a cure for blindness, but I mean perfect
within a realistic near-term goal.
I have a hard time working with LaTeX notation, it's simply to
unwieldy and wordy for longer problems, but at least I can work with
it if I have to and it is better than nothing.

On 5/10/12, Ryan Hemphill <ryanhemphill.email at gmail.com> wrote:
> Michael, you have made some very good points.  Thanks for sharing that, I
> appreciate it.
>
> Ryan
>
> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 6:17 AM, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com>
> wrote:
>
>> While Niel and design science are one of the few companies which are
>> making effort in making maths accessible, I still have a bad feeling that
>> entirely relying on electronic form for tests may end up not being a good
>> move for those who use screen readers or Braille, probably particularly
>> for
>> those who use Braille.
>>
>> As an example, mathplayer which makes maths in a web page (math included
>> in the MathML format) accessible to screen readers, does it by creating a
>> string describing the equation in words and presenting that to the screen
>> reader. While it may speak it OK, the problem is that it isn't easy to
>> navigate through should the person reading need to find a specific part
>> of
>> the equation and the Braille display will only show words of the equation
>> rather than proper Braille maths (eg. Nemeth notation).
>>
>> As an example of what I mean, take the equation a/b=c, MathPlayer will
>> show this to a screen reader as:
>> Fraction ay , over b end fraction equals c
>> That will be what one would read on a Braille display when using
>> MathPlayer and what one has to cursor through if you wanted to find what
>> is
>> on the bottom of the fraction.
>>
>> While it may not be too bad for such a short example, think what it can
>> get like with longer equations (eg. even the quadratic formula).
>>
>> Other solutions tend to make use of the LaTeX notation to make maths
>> accessible, and if you don't know what that is then it sort of proves
>> what
>> I say as a draw back to it, it requires people to know the LaTeX notation
>> to be able to understand the maths and for some LaTeX isn't the right
>> solution as they don't have much maths to deal with and so the investment
>> of time to learn LaTeX is not worth it. Also LaTeX was not really
>> designed
>> as a reading notation (its really a document preparation language) and I
>> feel sometimes the effort to understand the LaTeX notation while reading
>> can get in the way of understanding the maths, others may disagree with
>> this.
>>
>> Sorry if I sound a bit negative, I hope Niel can come up with something
>> suitable and its also good you are asking while there is some time to get
>> it sorted.
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>>
>> On 10/05/2012 01:47, Patricia Balassone wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you for your offer, I will be glad to forward your information.
>>> I'm
>>> keeping my fingers crossed that my suggestions and concerns are heard.
>>> 'Course crossing my fingers does make it harder to braille =)
>>> Pat
>>>
>>>  Neil Soiffer<NeilS at dessci.com>  05/09/12 7:37 PM>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> As the risk of being too commercial -- please have them contact me (
>>> neils at dessci.com).  We have products that can be used as part of other
>>> products that can help make the math accessible beyond a web page.
>>>
>>> I don't want to sound pessimistic, but based on past experiences, math
>>> usually loses out in the last minute rush to get it all working.  It's
>>> great that you are asking the questions early though -- maybe they will
>>> do
>>> the work before it is too late.  You need to push REALLY hard though to
>>> make sure it doesn't become the all too familiar refrain:  "we had
>>> higher
>>> priority items we needed to do".
>>>
>>> Neil Soiffer
>>> Senior Scientist
>>> Design Science, Inc.
>>> www.dessci.com
>>> ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor ~
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Patricia Balassone<
>>> Patricia.Balassone@**lansingschools.net<Patricia.Balassone at lansingschools.net>>
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>  A very good question and one that I do not yet have an answer. It could
>>>> be
>>>> either since the test will be available state-wide, I'm thinking a
>>>> program
>>>> installed on Windows to prevent unauthorized access. I will have more
>>>> information next week.
>>>> Pat
>>>>
>>>>  Ryan
>>>> Hemphill<ryanhemphill.email@**gmail.com<ryanhemphill.email at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>  05/09/12 3:16 PM>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this going to be a web-based system, or program installed on
>>>> Windows?
>>>>
>>>> Ryan
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Patricia Balassone<
>>>> Patricia.Balassone@**lansingschools.net<Patricia.Balassone at lansingschools.net>>
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  I enjoy reading posts from the BlindMath listserve, although I admit I
>>>>> don’t understand a lot of what is discussed. That being said, I’m
>>>>> looking
>>>>> for some input as to the difficulties encountered when creating an
>>>>> electronic math document that can be understood with screen readers
>>>>> and
>>>>> braille displays. Beginning in 2014, the state assessment tests that
>>>>> our
>>>>> high school students are required to take will only be available via
>>>>> computer-generated programs. I will be talking with some of the people
>>>>>
>>>> who
>>>>
>>>>> are responsible for creating the programs to administer these tests
>>>>> and
>>>>> I
>>>>> want to use this opportunity to help make them aware of the issues
>>>>>
>>>> specific
>>>>
>>>>> to braille readers. I realize I may be asking for a lot of
>>>>> information,
>>>>>
>>>> so
>>>>
>>>>> it might be easier to have conversations offlist.
>>>>> Thank you for any help you can give,
>>>>> Patricia Balassone
>>>>> VI parapro
>>>>> Sexton High School
>>>>> Lansing MI USA
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