[Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays

Sina Bahram sbahram at nc.rr.com
Fri May 11 15:53:43 UTC 2012 

I think that Ben addressed the size issues, so I'll address the two handed interaction one. this is definitely something we're investigating. For now, it's single hand, but two handed interaction techniques are something that I've been wanting to add, run experiments on, and then validate.

Thanks very much for your feedback.

Take care,
Sina

Website: www.SinaBahram.com
Twitter: @SinaBahram


-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin Davison
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 7:41 AM
To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays

Michael,

Screen sizes are tricky. It turns out that you are faster to find a 
target with finger movements, over hand movements, over arm movements, 
so a small screen makes sense for efficient activity. However, research 
in tactile graphics has shown that there needs to be certain spacings 
between elements (lines, text, etc) for the graph to be usable. Whether 
this applies to software on touchscreens with box-regions of "selection 
squares" is an open research question, but I would expect there would be 
some minimum threshold (probably above 1cm). Below this threshold, there 
will be too many perceptual and motor errors.

Having two hands is a common exploration technique for tactile graphics, 
and useful for finding outliers and understanding the graph. 
Technologies for blind users should support this. Multitouch devices 
will detect multiple fingers. However, determining the "lead finger", 
where the user is paying attention, is an important part of the user 
experience. From what I understand, for example, when touch-reading 
braille with the right hand, the ring and middle fingers act as an 
alignment guide for the text, and many people pay attention and perceive 
the braille through the index (pointer) finger. An application only 
displaying (through braille or speech) what is at the ring finger would 
be misaligned with how braille is read on paper. Two hands makes this 
detection more complicated for the programmer, and so developers must 
take the time to consult empirical studies and actual users.

- Ben


On 5/11/2012 5:42 AM, Michael Whapples wrote:
> Yes I mainly was objecting to the platform, however until one has it 
> on a platform they will use then the tool remains as good as 
> non-existent. Many of the mobile screen readers have support for 
> bluetooth Braille displays, but as I have a perfectly functioning USB 
> Braille display I cannot justify (cost, far too much) changing it, so 
> the Braille support in mobile screen readers adds no value in my mind 
> and the developers may as well have spent time on something more 
> useful. Of course, there may be some who it will be useful to and it 
> comes down to numbers as to whether the developer feels its going to 
> add value.
>
> Moving from that to comment on the actual ideas of the tool, based 
> purely on reading.
>
> Quite a lot of it seems to make sense. I personally think having the 
> touch part is of value, I really find I need to maintain the 
> physical/spatial component when using diagrams to understand how 
> things relate. A couple of comments/questions. One thing which caught 
> me out when first trying IVEO from viewplus was that I tend to explore 
> tactile diagrams with two hands. While this is personal feeling rather 
> than experimental findings, I think the reason is that I may use one 
> hand as a marker and the other to find something else and then I know 
> where the two points are relative to each other. The problem was that 
> two hands confused IVEO and it meant the spoken output was not related 
> to what I thought I was tapping (sometimes it thought the other hand 
> was pressing/tapping). Any way to allow this sort of use?
>
> Another touchscreen question is, would you advise a certain size 
> screen? What I mean by this is that I actually think sometimes a small 
> screen is possible to be more accurate with as I can have a finger or 
> thumb on the edge of the device and reach over with another finger, 
> this then means I can feel how far/where I am reaching because of 
> relative finger position/muscle tension in the hand. On larger screens 
> one may not be able to do this and may need to move the hand around 
> and so loose the relative positioning feeling. Obviously a larger 
> screen means things can be larger to find, I wonder if there is an 
> optimal size.
>
> As an example to the above, when typing on an iPodTouch, I find I can 
> be quicker and more accurate using it in portrait mode rather than 
> landscape, I just feel landscape is too spread out.
>
> A different comment, I would probably have said speech recognition is 
> not adding value, but as you have also included natural language 
> recognition it possibly does. If you had not included natural language 
> recognition I just feel the speech commands would have been yet 
> another command set to remember and so does it solve something which 
> is a problem with the other interaction modes. Not needing to use a 
> specific command set means one hasn't got another command set to 
> remember and so can take a good guess if you cannot remember the 
> command in other modes.
>
> Hope some of this is useful.
>
> Michael Whapples
> On 11/05/2012 02:03, Sina Bahram wrote:
>> While I hear you: all you've stated an objection to is the platform. 
>> As you know, this is nothing more than an engineering effort to move 
>> to other platforms, and I agree with you in terms of availability and 
>> so forth. On the other hand, the research, the interaction 
>> techniques, the feature sets: these are platform agnostic. 
>> Furthermore, the development experience on Android is far superior to 
>> that of IOS, whereas ironically the user experience is far superior 
>> on IOS than it is on Android; thus, this paradoxical situation leads 
>> to the current implementation. Please understand that this is the 
>> most minor of concerns, as this not a product yet, but a way of 
>> showing folks that such things are possible. If we turn this into a 
>> product or release it as such, then of course such considerations are 
>> on the top of the list before anything else, frankly.
>>
>> A friend once told me that if all people criticize are the easiest to 
>> change of engineering efforts/details, then you're doing OK, *smile*, 
>> unfortunately, I'm not ready to presume that yet, but I might presume 
>> that you don't have any comments on the substance/meat of the 
>> project? if you do, please know I'm anxious to hear them, as I want 
>> to incorporate feedback into this.
>>
>> Thanks so much for your feedback and for taking the time to write 
>> something: so many people don't.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 8:21 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen 
>> readers/braille displays
>>
>> That's all fine if one has/wants an Android tablet.
>>
>> That comment is not to do down your work, more a call to say "please put
>> it in a more widely useful form". Personally I have absolutely no
>> interest or intent in getting an Android tablet, probably as much
>> political (I dislike the Google involvement) as much as practical
>> (partially cost to use ratio, and also I have already some Apple
>> products so other Apple products would probably fit better for sharing
>> data/information). My view is that computers are more widely useful,
>> many are likely to already have one/have access to one, there is a
>> dominant OS (majority are windows) and there are tools which make it
>> easy to make crossplatform applications (eg. Java), etc.
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>> On 11/05/2012 00:52, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>> We're working on some solutions for Maps and also diagrams such as 
>>> FlowCharts in my lab. An effort, for which I was quite humbled and 
>>> honored, to recently receive a Whitehouse Champions of Change award.
>>>
>>> Currently, our system allows a blind student to interact with Google 
>>> maps via touch, voice, and keyboard. It runs on any Android tablet, 
>>> or really any decently recent Android powered device, and 
>>> facilitates this access to the map by utilizing the TIKISI framework 
>>> which I've developed as part of my doctoral studies.
>>>
>>> If you promise not to judge draft level copy that is very much not 
>>> complete, you can read more about these efforts at:
>>>
>>> www.AccessibleInfographics.com
>>>
>>> we most recently made significant progress on FlowCharts, so I'll be 
>>> updating the FlowCharts section soon with a write-up of our 
>>> progress. Videos are forthcoming.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps stimulate some discussion. Feel free to contact me 
>>> off list with questions.
>>>
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:59 PM
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and 
>>> screen readers/braille displays
>>>
>>> You mentioned diagrams and maps, I am not sure if there is a purely
>>> computer based solution which is satisfactory for those. I know some 
>>> use
>>> the software called the vOICe (www.seeingwithsound.com), but I think
>>> even users of that admit it has its limitations for what one can
>>> understand in a diagram when using it. Also while I have looked at 
>>> it, I
>>> have never really got to grips with it, I am not putting it down by
>>> saying that, many find it useful and I think it possibly has value, I
>>> rather mean I personally have never managed to get on with it.
>>>
>>> I think certainly for the diagrams there may need to be a physical
>>> diagram for blind students.
>>>
>>> As for the maths, well there are bits and pieces out there which can do
>>> parts of it, but nothing really linked up. As Steve mentioned, may 
>>> be if
>>> a state government pushes screen reader manufacturers then may be they
>>> will feel there is a need and so will start working on the problem.
>>> Until the screen reader providers start working on it those who do try
>>> and make maths accessible will be working in quite a constrained
>>> environment.
>>>
>>> Michael Whapples
>>> On 10/05/2012 14:40, Patricia Balassone wrote:
>>>> Thank you all, your feedback contains the kind of information I 
>>>> need to pass along. Although I only know a little about Nemeth and 
>>>> even less about programming, I know enough that I am also skeptical 
>>>> of the possibility for adequate adaptations. Unfortunately, 
>>>> providing a brailled hard copy with all possible answer scenarios 
>>>> for an exam that is answer driven is unrealistic. One of my 
>>>> suggestions, even though it will still be cumbersome, will be to 
>>>> supply tactile copies of all maps, diagrams, and equations for 
>>>> braille readers. Again, thank you for allowing me to tap into your 
>>>> knowledge and experience.
>>>> Patricia Balassone
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