[Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays

Fri May 11 16:03:32 UTC 2012

Hi Michael

I understand your frustration with Android, and commented on Google's
lackof progress in an article for the European Blind Union magazine
(www.euroblind.org), about CSUN.
So I fully share your frustration with the platform, whichis a subject
fr a whole different discussion elsewhere.
Apple is incredibly hard to work with, I have found myself on the
developer end recently, and been shocked by the lack of transparancy
and resources available to me in that capacity, so I see that side of
it too.
I hope that Windows 8 may solve this dilemma with a
desktop/touchscreen interface, enabling one device to possibly act as
a tactice tablet as well as a laptop.
I suppose though that Windows 8 touchscreen accessibility will take
some time to mature, neither iOS nor Android had a very good interface
in their original versions, and it would be unfair to expect Microsoft
to get it right in the beginning, though I hope so.
Couldn't you get an Android tablet at a very reasonable cost, compared
with many assistive devices. I don't know, but I would guestimate $200
to $300 for a touch tablet that has the screen and processing power to
run a tactile diagram map, but that is purely speculation.
I'd shell that out for access to graphics, or justify it as expense
when applying for funding, though I agree that I don't like carrying
around tons of special purpose devices.
So muttering well accepted, but I just felt I had to make and clarify the point.
Cheers and be well.
-B

On 5/11/12, Benjamin Davison <davison at gatech.edu> wrote:
> Michael,
>
> Screen sizes are tricky. It turns out that you are faster to find a
> target with finger movements, over hand movements, over arm movements,
> so a small screen makes sense for efficient activity. However, research
> in tactile graphics has shown that there needs to be certain spacings
> between elements (lines, text, etc) for the graph to be usable. Whether
> this applies to software on touchscreens with box-regions of "selection
> squares" is an open research question, but I would expect there would be
> some minimum threshold (probably above 1cm). Below this threshold, there
> will be too many perceptual and motor errors.
>
> Having two hands is a common exploration technique for tactile graphics,
> and useful for finding outliers and understanding the graph.
> Technologies for blind users should support this. Multitouch devices
> will detect multiple fingers. However, determining the "lead finger",
> where the user is paying attention, is an important part of the user
> experience. From what I understand, for example, when touch-reading
> braille with the right hand, the ring and middle fingers act as an
> alignment guide for the text, and many people pay attention and perceive
> the braille through the index (pointer) finger. An application only
> displaying (through braille or speech) what is at the ring finger would
> be misaligned with how braille is read on paper. Two hands makes this
> detection more complicated for the programmer, and so developers must
> take the time to consult empirical studies and actual users.
>
> - Ben
>
>
> On 5/11/2012 5:42 AM, Michael Whapples wrote:
>> Yes I mainly was objecting to the platform, however until one has it
>> on a platform they will use then the tool remains as good as
>> non-existent. Many of the mobile screen readers have support for
>> bluetooth Braille displays, but as I have a perfectly functioning USB
>> Braille display I cannot justify (cost, far too much) changing it, so
>> the Braille support in mobile screen readers adds no value in my mind
>> and the developers may as well have spent time on something more
>> useful. Of course, there may be some who it will be useful to and it
>> comes down to numbers as to whether the developer feels its going to
>> add value.
>>
>> Moving from that to comment on the actual ideas of the tool, based
>> purely on reading.
>>
>> Quite a lot of it seems to make sense. I personally think having the
>> touch part is of value, I really find I need to maintain the
>> physical/spatial component when using diagrams to understand how
>> things relate. A couple of comments/questions. One thing which caught
>> me out when first trying IVEO from viewplus was that I tend to explore
>> tactile diagrams with two hands. While this is personal feeling rather
>> than experimental findings, I think the reason is that I may use one
>> hand as a marker and the other to find something else and then I know
>> where the two points are relative to each other. The problem was that
>> two hands confused IVEO and it meant the spoken output was not related
>> to what I thought I was tapping (sometimes it thought the other hand
>> was pressing/tapping). Any way to allow this sort of use?
>>
>> Another touchscreen question is, would you advise a certain size
>> screen? What I mean by this is that I actually think sometimes a small
>> screen is possible to be more accurate with as I can have a finger or
>> thumb on the edge of the device and reach over with another finger,
>> this then means I can feel how far/where I am reaching because of
>> relative finger position/muscle tension in the hand. On larger screens
>> one may not be able to do this and may need to move the hand around
>> and so loose the relative positioning feeling. Obviously a larger
>> screen means things can be larger to find, I wonder if there is an
>> optimal size.
>>
>> As an example to the above, when typing on an iPodTouch, I find I can
>> be quicker and more accurate using it in portrait mode rather than
>> landscape, I just feel landscape is too spread out.
>>
>> A different comment, I would probably have said speech recognition is
>> not adding value, but as you have also included natural language
>> recognition it possibly does. If you had not included natural language
>> recognition I just feel the speech commands would have been yet
>> another command set to remember and so does it solve something which
>> is a problem with the other interaction modes. Not needing to use a
>> specific command set means one hasn't got another command set to
>> remember and so can take a good guess if you cannot remember the
>> command in other modes.
>>
>> Hope some of this is useful.
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>> On 11/05/2012 02:03, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>> While I hear you: all you've stated an objection to is the platform.
>>> As you know, this is nothing more than an engineering effort to move
>>> to other platforms, and I agree with you in terms of availability and
>>> so forth. On the other hand, the research, the interaction
>>> techniques, the feature sets: these are platform agnostic.
>>> Furthermore, the development experience on Android is far superior to
>>> that of IOS, whereas ironically the user experience is far superior
>>> on IOS than it is on Android; thus, this paradoxical situation leads
>>> to the current implementation. Please understand that this is the
>>> most minor of concerns, as this not a product yet, but a way of
>>> showing folks that such things are possible. If we turn this into a
>>> product or release it as such, then of course such considerations are
>>> on the top of the list before anything else, frankly.
>>>
>>> A friend once told me that if all people criticize are the easiest to
>>> change of engineering efforts/details, then you're doing OK, *smile*,
>>> unfortunately, I'm not ready to presume that yet, but I might presume
>>> that you don't have any comments on the substance/meat of the
>>> project? if you do, please know I'm anxious to hear them, as I want
>>> to incorporate feedback into this.
>>>
>>> Thanks so much for your feedback and for taking the time to write
>>> something: so many people don't.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 8:21 PM
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen
>>> readers/braille displays
>>>
>>> That's all fine if one has/wants an Android tablet.
>>>
>>> That comment is not to do down your work, more a call to say "please put
>>> it in a more widely useful form". Personally I have absolutely no
>>> interest or intent in getting an Android tablet, probably as much
>>> political (I dislike the Google involvement) as much as practical
>>> (partially cost to use ratio, and also I have already some Apple
>>> products so other Apple products would probably fit better for sharing
>>> data/information). My view is that computers are more widely useful,
>>> many are likely to already have one/have access to one, there is a
>>> dominant OS (majority are windows) and there are tools which make it
>>> easy to make crossplatform applications (eg. Java), etc.
>>>
>>> Michael Whapples
>>> On 11/05/2012 00:52, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>>> We're working on some solutions for Maps and also diagrams such as
>>>> FlowCharts in my lab. An effort, for which I was quite humbled and
>>>> honored, to recently receive a Whitehouse Champions of Change award.
>>>>
>>>> Currently, our system allows a blind student to interact with Google
>>>> maps via touch, voice, and keyboard. It runs on any Android tablet,
>>>> or really any decently recent Android powered device, and
>>>> facilitates this access to the map by utilizing the TIKISI framework
>>>> which I've developed as part of my doctoral studies.
>>>>
>>>> If you promise not to judge draft level copy that is very much not
>>>> complete, you can read more about these efforts at:
>>>>
>>>> www.AccessibleInfographics.com
>>>>
>>>> we most recently made significant progress on FlowCharts, so I'll be
>>>> updating the FlowCharts section soon with a write-up of our
>>>> progress. Videos are forthcoming.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps stimulate some discussion. Feel free to contact me
>>>> off list with questions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Sina
>>>>
>>>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>>>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:59 PM
>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and
>>>> screen readers/braille displays
>>>>
>>>> You mentioned diagrams and maps, I am not sure if there is a purely
>>>> computer based solution which is satisfactory for those. I know some
>>>> use
>>>> the software called the vOICe (www.seeingwithsound.com), but I think
>>>> even users of that admit it has its limitations for what one can
>>>> understand in a diagram when using it. Also while I have looked at
>>>> it, I
>>>> have never really got to grips with it, I am not putting it down by
>>>> saying that, many find it useful and I think it possibly has value, I
>>>> rather mean I personally have never managed to get on with it.
>>>>
>>>> I think certainly for the diagrams there may need to be a physical
>>>> diagram for blind students.
>>>>
>>>> As for the maths, well there are bits and pieces out there which can do
>>>> parts of it, but nothing really linked up. As Steve mentioned, may
>>>> be if
>>>> a state government pushes screen reader manufacturers then may be they
>>>> will feel there is a need and so will start working on the problem.
>>>> Until the screen reader providers start working on it those who do try
>>>> and make maths accessible will be working in quite a constrained
>>>> environment.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Whapples
>>>> On 10/05/2012 14:40, Patricia Balassone wrote:
>>>>> Thank you all, your feedback contains the kind of information I
>>>>> need to pass along. Although I only know a little about Nemeth and
>>>>> even less about programming, I know enough that I am also skeptical
>>>>> of the possibility for adequate adaptations. Unfortunately,
>>>>> providing a brailled hard copy with all possible answer scenarios
>>>>> for an exam that is answer driven is unrealistic. One of my
>>>>> suggestions, even though it will still be cumbersome, will be to
>>>>> supply tactile copies of all maps, diagrams, and equations for
>>>>> braille readers. Again, thank you for allowing me to tap into your
>>>>> knowledge and experience.
>>>>> Patricia Balassone
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