[Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays
Michael Whapples
mwhapples at aim.com
Fri May 11 22:20:46 UTC 2012
Thanks for the answer. As a point of interest on the screen size thing
and accuracy, on a good day I can type on an iPodTouch screen in
portrait without hitting a wrong key straight off, but on an average day
I may get the key next to it on the initial touch and this normally is
an offset issue (IE. I tend to get the key only on one side, I think
normally the one to the left of where I aimed). I am not sure on the
exact size of the keys I have been mentioning, but I think less than
that one cm estimation.
Also on the accuracy thing, with IOS and voiceover the ability to just
slide my finger to correct a miss is useful.
Michael Whapples
On 11/05/2012 12:41, Benjamin Davison wrote:
> Michael,
>
> Screen sizes are tricky. It turns out that you are faster to find a
> target with finger movements, over hand movements, over arm movements,
> so a small screen makes sense for efficient activity. However,
> research in tactile graphics has shown that there needs to be certain
> spacings between elements (lines, text, etc) for the graph to be
> usable. Whether this applies to software on touchscreens with
> box-regions of "selection squares" is an open research question, but I
> would expect there would be some minimum threshold (probably above
> 1cm). Below this threshold, there will be too many perceptual and
> motor errors.
>
> Having two hands is a common exploration technique for tactile
> graphics, and useful for finding outliers and understanding the graph.
> Technologies for blind users should support this. Multitouch devices
> will detect multiple fingers. However, determining the "lead finger",
> where the user is paying attention, is an important part of the user
> experience. From what I understand, for example, when touch-reading
> braille with the right hand, the ring and middle fingers act as an
> alignment guide for the text, and many people pay attention and
> perceive the braille through the index (pointer) finger. An
> application only displaying (through braille or speech) what is at the
> ring finger would be misaligned with how braille is read on paper. Two
> hands makes this detection more complicated for the programmer, and so
> developers must take the time to consult empirical studies and actual
> users.
>
> - Ben
>
>
> On 5/11/2012 5:42 AM, Michael Whapples wrote:
>> Yes I mainly was objecting to the platform, however until one has it
>> on a platform they will use then the tool remains as good as
>> non-existent. Many of the mobile screen readers have support for
>> bluetooth Braille displays, but as I have a perfectly functioning USB
>> Braille display I cannot justify (cost, far too much) changing it, so
>> the Braille support in mobile screen readers adds no value in my mind
>> and the developers may as well have spent time on something more
>> useful. Of course, there may be some who it will be useful to and it
>> comes down to numbers as to whether the developer feels its going to
>> add value.
>>
>> Moving from that to comment on the actual ideas of the tool, based
>> purely on reading.
>>
>> Quite a lot of it seems to make sense. I personally think having the
>> touch part is of value, I really find I need to maintain the
>> physical/spatial component when using diagrams to understand how
>> things relate. A couple of comments/questions. One thing which caught
>> me out when first trying IVEO from viewplus was that I tend to
>> explore tactile diagrams with two hands. While this is personal
>> feeling rather than experimental findings, I think the reason is that
>> I may use one hand as a marker and the other to find something else
>> and then I know where the two points are relative to each other. The
>> problem was that two hands confused IVEO and it meant the spoken
>> output was not related to what I thought I was tapping (sometimes it
>> thought the other hand was pressing/tapping). Any way to allow this
>> sort of use?
>>
>> Another touchscreen question is, would you advise a certain size
>> screen? What I mean by this is that I actually think sometimes a
>> small screen is possible to be more accurate with as I can have a
>> finger or thumb on the edge of the device and reach over with another
>> finger, this then means I can feel how far/where I am reaching
>> because of relative finger position/muscle tension in the hand. On
>> larger screens one may not be able to do this and may need to move
>> the hand around and so loose the relative positioning feeling.
>> Obviously a larger screen means things can be larger to find, I
>> wonder if there is an optimal size.
>>
>> As an example to the above, when typing on an iPodTouch, I find I can
>> be quicker and more accurate using it in portrait mode rather than
>> landscape, I just feel landscape is too spread out.
>>
>> A different comment, I would probably have said speech recognition is
>> not adding value, but as you have also included natural language
>> recognition it possibly does. If you had not included natural
>> language recognition I just feel the speech commands would have been
>> yet another command set to remember and so does it solve something
>> which is a problem with the other interaction modes. Not needing to
>> use a specific command set means one hasn't got another command set
>> to remember and so can take a good guess if you cannot remember the
>> command in other modes.
>>
>> Hope some of this is useful.
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>> On 11/05/2012 02:03, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>> While I hear you: all you've stated an objection to is the platform.
>>> As you know, this is nothing more than an engineering effort to move
>>> to other platforms, and I agree with you in terms of availability
>>> and so forth. On the other hand, the research, the interaction
>>> techniques, the feature sets: these are platform agnostic.
>>> Furthermore, the development experience on Android is far superior
>>> to that of IOS, whereas ironically the user experience is far
>>> superior on IOS than it is on Android; thus, this paradoxical
>>> situation leads to the current implementation. Please understand
>>> that this is the most minor of concerns, as this not a product yet,
>>> but a way of showing folks that such things are possible. If we turn
>>> this into a product or release it as such, then of course such
>>> considerations are on the top of the list before anything else,
>>> frankly.
>>>
>>> A friend once told me that if all people criticize are the easiest
>>> to change of engineering efforts/details, then you're doing OK,
>>> *smile*, unfortunately, I'm not ready to presume that yet, but I
>>> might presume that you don't have any comments on the substance/meat
>>> of the project? if you do, please know I'm anxious to hear them, as
>>> I want to incorporate feedback into this.
>>>
>>> Thanks so much for your feedback and for taking the time to write
>>> something: so many people don't.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 8:21 PM
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and
>>> screen readers/braille displays
>>>
>>> That's all fine if one has/wants an Android tablet.
>>>
>>> That comment is not to do down your work, more a call to say "please
>>> put
>>> it in a more widely useful form". Personally I have absolutely no
>>> interest or intent in getting an Android tablet, probably as much
>>> political (I dislike the Google involvement) as much as practical
>>> (partially cost to use ratio, and also I have already some Apple
>>> products so other Apple products would probably fit better for sharing
>>> data/information). My view is that computers are more widely useful,
>>> many are likely to already have one/have access to one, there is a
>>> dominant OS (majority are windows) and there are tools which make it
>>> easy to make crossplatform applications (eg. Java), etc.
>>>
>>> Michael Whapples
>>> On 11/05/2012 00:52, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>>> We're working on some solutions for Maps and also diagrams such as
>>>> FlowCharts in my lab. An effort, for which I was quite humbled and
>>>> honored, to recently receive a Whitehouse Champions of Change award.
>>>>
>>>> Currently, our system allows a blind student to interact with
>>>> Google maps via touch, voice, and keyboard. It runs on any Android
>>>> tablet, or really any decently recent Android powered device, and
>>>> facilitates this access to the map by utilizing the TIKISI
>>>> framework which I've developed as part of my doctoral studies.
>>>>
>>>> If you promise not to judge draft level copy that is very much not
>>>> complete, you can read more about these efforts at:
>>>>
>>>> www.AccessibleInfographics.com
>>>>
>>>> we most recently made significant progress on FlowCharts, so I'll
>>>> be updating the FlowCharts section soon with a write-up of our
>>>> progress. Videos are forthcoming.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps stimulate some discussion. Feel free to contact me
>>>> off list with questions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Sina
>>>>
>>>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>>>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:59 PM
>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and
>>>> screen readers/braille displays
>>>>
>>>> You mentioned diagrams and maps, I am not sure if there is a purely
>>>> computer based solution which is satisfactory for those. I know
>>>> some use
>>>> the software called the vOICe (www.seeingwithsound.com), but I think
>>>> even users of that admit it has its limitations for what one can
>>>> understand in a diagram when using it. Also while I have looked at
>>>> it, I
>>>> have never really got to grips with it, I am not putting it down by
>>>> saying that, many find it useful and I think it possibly has value, I
>>>> rather mean I personally have never managed to get on with it.
>>>>
>>>> I think certainly for the diagrams there may need to be a physical
>>>> diagram for blind students.
>>>>
>>>> As for the maths, well there are bits and pieces out there which
>>>> can do
>>>> parts of it, but nothing really linked up. As Steve mentioned, may
>>>> be if
>>>> a state government pushes screen reader manufacturers then may be they
>>>> will feel there is a need and so will start working on the problem.
>>>> Until the screen reader providers start working on it those who do try
>>>> and make maths accessible will be working in quite a constrained
>>>> environment.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Whapples
>>>> On 10/05/2012 14:40, Patricia Balassone wrote:
>>>>> Thank you all, your feedback contains the kind of information I
>>>>> need to pass along. Although I only know a little about Nemeth and
>>>>> even less about programming, I know enough that I am also
>>>>> skeptical of the possibility for adequate adaptations.
>>>>> Unfortunately, providing a brailled hard copy with all possible
>>>>> answer scenarios for an exam that is answer driven is unrealistic.
>>>>> One of my suggestions, even though it will still be cumbersome,
>>>>> will be to supply tactile copies of all maps, diagrams, and
>>>>> equations for braille readers. Again, thank you for allowing me to
>>>>> tap into your knowledge and experience.
>>>>> Patricia Balassone
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