[Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays

Sina Bahram sbahram at nc.rr.com
Sat May 12 00:17:48 UTC 2012 

I think there might be others better qualified to speak on that tool. I have some thoughts, but maybe I can share them with you off
list.



Website: www.SinaBahram.com
Twitter: @SinaBahram


-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 7:42 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays

Sina

Do you know anything more about the braille input / Perkins keyboard
app for Android tht was in the news a few months back (out of Georgia
I believe)?
Seems like if that actually could become an alternative keyboard in
Android or IOS, there might be a way to create easy Nemeth input and
Nemeth to MathML convertion on a touch tablet. If you then combein
that with accessible graphics, we'd all of a sudden have a very
powerful tool for STE at a reasonable cost, supposedly.


On 5/11/12, Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the answer. As a point of interest on the screen size thing
> and accuracy, on a good day I can type on an iPodTouch screen in
> portrait without hitting a wrong key straight off, but on an average day
> I may get the key next to it on the initial touch and this normally is
> an offset issue (IE. I tend to get the key only on one side, I think
> normally the one to the left of where I aimed). I am not sure on the
> exact size of the keys I have been mentioning, but I think less than
> that one cm estimation.
>
> Also on the accuracy thing, with IOS and voiceover the ability to just
> slide my finger to correct a miss is useful.
>
> Michael Whapples
> On 11/05/2012 12:41, Benjamin Davison wrote:
>> Michael,
>>
>> Screen sizes are tricky. It turns out that you are faster to find a
>> target with finger movements, over hand movements, over arm movements,
>> so a small screen makes sense for efficient activity. However,
>> research in tactile graphics has shown that there needs to be certain
>> spacings between elements (lines, text, etc) for the graph to be
>> usable. Whether this applies to software on touchscreens with
>> box-regions of "selection squares" is an open research question, but I
>> would expect there would be some minimum threshold (probably above
>> 1cm). Below this threshold, there will be too many perceptual and
>> motor errors.
>>
>> Having two hands is a common exploration technique for tactile
>> graphics, and useful for finding outliers and understanding the graph.
>> Technologies for blind users should support this. Multitouch devices
>> will detect multiple fingers. However, determining the "lead finger",
>> where the user is paying attention, is an important part of the user
>> experience. From what I understand, for example, when touch-reading
>> braille with the right hand, the ring and middle fingers act as an
>> alignment guide for the text, and many people pay attention and
>> perceive the braille through the index (pointer) finger. An
>> application only displaying (through braille or speech) what is at the
>> ring finger would be misaligned with how braille is read on paper. Two
>> hands makes this detection more complicated for the programmer, and so
>> developers must take the time to consult empirical studies and actual
>> users.
>>
>> - Ben
>>
>>
>> On 5/11/2012 5:42 AM, Michael Whapples wrote:
>>> Yes I mainly was objecting to the platform, however until one has it
>>> on a platform they will use then the tool remains as good as
>>> non-existent. Many of the mobile screen readers have support for
>>> bluetooth Braille displays, but as I have a perfectly functioning USB
>>> Braille display I cannot justify (cost, far too much) changing it, so
>>> the Braille support in mobile screen readers adds no value in my mind
>>> and the developers may as well have spent time on something more
>>> useful. Of course, there may be some who it will be useful to and it
>>> comes down to numbers as to whether the developer feels its going to
>>> add value.
>>>
>>> Moving from that to comment on the actual ideas of the tool, based
>>> purely on reading.
>>>
>>> Quite a lot of it seems to make sense. I personally think having the
>>> touch part is of value, I really find I need to maintain the
>>> physical/spatial component when using diagrams to understand how
>>> things relate. A couple of comments/questions. One thing which caught
>>> me out when first trying IVEO from viewplus was that I tend to
>>> explore tactile diagrams with two hands. While this is personal
>>> feeling rather than experimental findings, I think the reason is that
>>> I may use one hand as a marker and the other to find something else
>>> and then I know where the two points are relative to each other. The
>>> problem was that two hands confused IVEO and it meant the spoken
>>> output was not related to what I thought I was tapping (sometimes it
>>> thought the other hand was pressing/tapping). Any way to allow this
>>> sort of use?
>>>
>>> Another touchscreen question is, would you advise a certain size
>>> screen? What I mean by this is that I actually think sometimes a
>>> small screen is possible to be more accurate with as I can have a
>>> finger or thumb on the edge of the device and reach over with another
>>> finger, this then means I can feel how far/where I am reaching
>>> because of relative finger position/muscle tension in the hand. On
>>> larger screens one may not be able to do this and may need to move
>>> the hand around and so loose the relative positioning feeling.
>>> Obviously a larger screen means things can be larger to find, I
>>> wonder if there is an optimal size.
>>>
>>> As an example to the above, when typing on an iPodTouch, I find I can
>>> be quicker and more accurate using it in portrait mode rather than
>>> landscape, I just feel landscape is too spread out.
>>>
>>> A different comment, I would probably have said speech recognition is
>>> not adding value, but as you have also included natural language
>>> recognition it possibly does. If you had not included natural
>>> language recognition I just feel the speech commands would have been
>>> yet another command set to remember and so does it solve something
>>> which is a problem with the other interaction modes. Not needing to
>>> use a specific command set means one hasn't got another command set
>>> to remember and so can take a good guess if you cannot remember the
>>> command in other modes.
>>>
>>> Hope some of this is useful.
>>>
>>> Michael Whapples
>>> On 11/05/2012 02:03, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>>> While I hear you: all you've stated an objection to is the platform.
>>>> As you know, this is nothing more than an engineering effort to move
>>>> to other platforms, and I agree with you in terms of availability
>>>> and so forth. On the other hand, the research, the interaction
>>>> techniques, the feature sets: these are platform agnostic.
>>>> Furthermore, the development experience on Android is far superior
>>>> to that of IOS, whereas ironically the user experience is far
>>>> superior on IOS than it is on Android; thus, this paradoxical
>>>> situation leads to the current implementation. Please understand
>>>> that this is the most minor of concerns, as this not a product yet,
>>>> but a way of showing folks that such things are possible. If we turn
>>>> this into a product or release it as such, then of course such
>>>> considerations are on the top of the list before anything else,
>>>> frankly.
>>>>
>>>> A friend once told me that if all people criticize are the easiest
>>>> to change of engineering efforts/details, then you're doing OK,
>>>> *smile*, unfortunately, I'm not ready to presume that yet, but I
>>>> might presume that you don't have any comments on the substance/meat
>>>> of the project? if you do, please know I'm anxious to hear them, as
>>>> I want to incorporate feedback into this.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks so much for your feedback and for taking the time to write
>>>> something: so many people don't.
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Sina
>>>>
>>>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>>>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 8:21 PM
>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and
>>>> screen readers/braille displays
>>>>
>>>> That's all fine if one has/wants an Android tablet.
>>>>
>>>> That comment is not to do down your work, more a call to say "please
>>>> put
>>>> it in a more widely useful form". Personally I have absolutely no
>>>> interest or intent in getting an Android tablet, probably as much
>>>> political (I dislike the Google involvement) as much as practical
>>>> (partially cost to use ratio, and also I have already some Apple
>>>> products so other Apple products would probably fit better for sharing
>>>> data/information). My view is that computers are more widely useful,
>>>> many are likely to already have one/have access to one, there is a
>>>> dominant OS (majority are windows) and there are tools which make it
>>>> easy to make crossplatform applications (eg. Java), etc.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Whapples
>>>> On 11/05/2012 00:52, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>>>> We're working on some solutions for Maps and also diagrams such as
>>>>> FlowCharts in my lab. An effort, for which I was quite humbled and
>>>>> honored, to recently receive a Whitehouse Champions of Change award.
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently, our system allows a blind student to interact with
>>>>> Google maps via touch, voice, and keyboard. It runs on any Android
>>>>> tablet, or really any decently recent Android powered device, and
>>>>> facilitates this access to the map by utilizing the TIKISI
>>>>> framework which I've developed as part of my doctoral studies.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you promise not to judge draft level copy that is very much not
>>>>> complete, you can read more about these efforts at:
>>>>>
>>>>> www.AccessibleInfographics.com
>>>>>
>>>>> we most recently made significant progress on FlowCharts, so I'll
>>>>> be updating the FlowCharts section soon with a write-up of our
>>>>> progress. Videos are forthcoming.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope this helps stimulate some discussion. Feel free to contact me
>>>>> off list with questions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Take care,
>>>>> Sina
>>>>>
>>>>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>>>>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:59 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and
>>>>> screen readers/braille displays
>>>>>
>>>>> You mentioned diagrams and maps, I am not sure if there is a purely
>>>>> computer based solution which is satisfactory for those. I know
>>>>> some use
>>>>> the software called the vOICe (www.seeingwithsound.com), but I think
>>>>> even users of that admit it has its limitations for what one can
>>>>> understand in a diagram when using it. Also while I have looked at
>>>>> it, I
>>>>> have never really got to grips with it, I am not putting it down by
>>>>> saying that, many find it useful and I think it possibly has value, I
>>>>> rather mean I personally have never managed to get on with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think certainly for the diagrams there may need to be a physical
>>>>> diagram for blind students.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the maths, well there are bits and pieces out there which
>>>>> can do
>>>>> parts of it, but nothing really linked up. As Steve mentioned, may
>>>>> be if
>>>>> a state government pushes screen reader manufacturers then may be they
>>>>> will feel there is a need and so will start working on the problem.
>>>>> Until the screen reader providers start working on it those who do try
>>>>> and make maths accessible will be working in quite a constrained
>>>>> environment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Whapples
>>>>> On 10/05/2012 14:40, Patricia Balassone wrote:
>>>>>> Thank you all, your feedback contains the kind of information I
>>>>>> need to pass along. Although I only know a little about Nemeth and
>>>>>> even less about programming, I know enough that I am also
>>>>>> skeptical of the possibility for adequate adaptations.
>>>>>> Unfortunately, providing a brailled hard copy with all possible
>>>>>> answer scenarios for an exam that is answer driven is unrealistic.
>>>>>> One of my suggestions, even though it will still be cumbersome,
>>>>>> will be to supply tactile copies of all maps, diagrams, and
>>>>>> equations for braille readers. Again, thank you for allowing me to
>>>>>> tap into your knowledge and experience.
>>>>>> Patricia Balassone
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