[Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and screen readers/braille displays

Sat May 12 12:52:06 UTC 2012

Birkir,

My friend Caleb Southern develops and evaluates BrailleTouch. He's an 
HCC PhD student at Georgia Tech (and a recent NSF fellowship winner!). 
You can reach him at caleb.southern at gmail.com (he's in the CC too).

AFAIK BrailleTouch only works with level 1 braille. But it understands 
the chords, so I imagine the content could be recorded for any use 
(level 2, nemeth, etc). I think BrailleTouch would make a fine addition 
to a mobile software app, but Caleb can speak to that point.

Personally, I would like a more universal text storage format. 
Unfortunately, accessible does not always mean universal. Reading and 
writing with the alphabet or braille is fine, but for the tool to be 
most useful, it should be usable by those who both understand braille 
and don't understand braille (with their corresponding tools). In 
education, many TVIs are not required to know braille, and the vast 
majority of sighted teachers and students will never learn braille. For 
the blind student to be most integrated, the tools they use and content 
they produce should also be accessible to "photon dependent" people. 
MathML is a good candidate.

- Ben

On 5/11/2012 7:41 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
> Sina
>
> Do you know anything more about the braille input / Perkins keyboard
> app for Android tht was in the news a few months back (out of Georgia
> I believe)?
> Seems like if that actually could become an alternative keyboard in
> Android or IOS, there might be a way to create easy Nemeth input and
> Nemeth to MathML convertion on a touch tablet. If you then combein
> that with accessible graphics, we'd all of a sudden have a very
> powerful tool for STE at a reasonable cost, supposedly.
>
>
> On 5/11/12, Michael Whapples<mwhapples at aim.com>  wrote:
>> Thanks for the answer. As a point of interest on the screen size thing
>> and accuracy, on a good day I can type on an iPodTouch screen in
>> portrait without hitting a wrong key straight off, but on an average day
>> I may get the key next to it on the initial touch and this normally is
>> an offset issue (IE. I tend to get the key only on one side, I think
>> normally the one to the left of where I aimed). I am not sure on the
>> exact size of the keys I have been mentioning, but I think less than
>> that one cm estimation.
>>
>> Also on the accuracy thing, with IOS and voiceover the ability to just
>> slide my finger to correct a miss is useful.
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>> On 11/05/2012 12:41, Benjamin Davison wrote:
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>> Screen sizes are tricky. It turns out that you are faster to find a
>>> target with finger movements, over hand movements, over arm movements,
>>> so a small screen makes sense for efficient activity. However,
>>> research in tactile graphics has shown that there needs to be certain
>>> spacings between elements (lines, text, etc) for the graph to be
>>> usable. Whether this applies to software on touchscreens with
>>> box-regions of "selection squares" is an open research question, but I
>>> would expect there would be some minimum threshold (probably above
>>> 1cm). Below this threshold, there will be too many perceptual and
>>> motor errors.
>>>
>>> Having two hands is a common exploration technique for tactile
>>> graphics, and useful for finding outliers and understanding the graph.
>>> Technologies for blind users should support this. Multitouch devices
>>> will detect multiple fingers. However, determining the "lead finger",
>>> where the user is paying attention, is an important part of the user
>>> experience. From what I understand, for example, when touch-reading
>>> braille with the right hand, the ring and middle fingers act as an
>>> alignment guide for the text, and many people pay attention and
>>> perceive the braille through the index (pointer) finger. An
>>> application only displaying (through braille or speech) what is at the
>>> ring finger would be misaligned with how braille is read on paper. Two
>>> hands makes this detection more complicated for the programmer, and so
>>> developers must take the time to consult empirical studies and actual
>>> users.
>>>
>>> - Ben
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/11/2012 5:42 AM, Michael Whapples wrote:
>>>> Yes I mainly was objecting to the platform, however until one has it
>>>> on a platform they will use then the tool remains as good as
>>>> non-existent. Many of the mobile screen readers have support for
>>>> bluetooth Braille displays, but as I have a perfectly functioning USB
>>>> Braille display I cannot justify (cost, far too much) changing it, so
>>>> the Braille support in mobile screen readers adds no value in my mind
>>>> and the developers may as well have spent time on something more
>>>> useful. Of course, there may be some who it will be useful to and it
>>>> comes down to numbers as to whether the developer feels its going to
>>>> add value.
>>>>
>>>> Moving from that to comment on the actual ideas of the tool, based
>>>> purely on reading.
>>>>
>>>> Quite a lot of it seems to make sense. I personally think having the
>>>> touch part is of value, I really find I need to maintain the
>>>> physical/spatial component when using diagrams to understand how
>>>> things relate. A couple of comments/questions. One thing which caught
>>>> me out when first trying IVEO from viewplus was that I tend to
>>>> explore tactile diagrams with two hands. While this is personal
>>>> feeling rather than experimental findings, I think the reason is that
>>>> I may use one hand as a marker and the other to find something else
>>>> and then I know where the two points are relative to each other. The
>>>> problem was that two hands confused IVEO and it meant the spoken
>>>> output was not related to what I thought I was tapping (sometimes it
>>>> thought the other hand was pressing/tapping). Any way to allow this
>>>> sort of use?
>>>>
>>>> Another touchscreen question is, would you advise a certain size
>>>> screen? What I mean by this is that I actually think sometimes a
>>>> small screen is possible to be more accurate with as I can have a
>>>> finger or thumb on the edge of the device and reach over with another
>>>> finger, this then means I can feel how far/where I am reaching
>>>> because of relative finger position/muscle tension in the hand. On
>>>> larger screens one may not be able to do this and may need to move
>>>> the hand around and so loose the relative positioning feeling.
>>>> Obviously a larger screen means things can be larger to find, I
>>>> wonder if there is an optimal size.
>>>>
>>>> As an example to the above, when typing on an iPodTouch, I find I can
>>>> be quicker and more accurate using it in portrait mode rather than
>>>> landscape, I just feel landscape is too spread out.
>>>>
>>>> A different comment, I would probably have said speech recognition is
>>>> not adding value, but as you have also included natural language
>>>> recognition it possibly does. If you had not included natural
>>>> language recognition I just feel the speech commands would have been
>>>> yet another command set to remember and so does it solve something
>>>> which is a problem with the other interaction modes. Not needing to
>>>> use a specific command set means one hasn't got another command set
>>>> to remember and so can take a good guess if you cannot remember the
>>>> command in other modes.
>>>>
>>>> Hope some of this is useful.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Whapples
>>>> On 11/05/2012 02:03, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>>>> While I hear you: all you've stated an objection to is the platform.
>>>>> As you know, this is nothing more than an engineering effort to move
>>>>> to other platforms, and I agree with you in terms of availability
>>>>> and so forth. On the other hand, the research, the interaction
>>>>> techniques, the feature sets: these are platform agnostic.
>>>>> Furthermore, the development experience on Android is far superior
>>>>> to that of IOS, whereas ironically the user experience is far
>>>>> superior on IOS than it is on Android; thus, this paradoxical
>>>>> situation leads to the current implementation. Please understand
>>>>> that this is the most minor of concerns, as this not a product yet,
>>>>> but a way of showing folks that such things are possible. If we turn
>>>>> this into a product or release it as such, then of course such
>>>>> considerations are on the top of the list before anything else,
>>>>> frankly.
>>>>>
>>>>> A friend once told me that if all people criticize are the easiest
>>>>> to change of engineering efforts/details, then you're doing OK,
>>>>> *smile*, unfortunately, I'm not ready to presume that yet, but I
>>>>> might presume that you don't have any comments on the substance/meat
>>>>> of the project? if you do, please know I'm anxious to hear them, as
>>>>> I want to incorporate feedback into this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks so much for your feedback and for taking the time to write
>>>>> something: so many people don't.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take care,
>>>>> Sina
>>>>>
>>>>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>>>>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 8:21 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and
>>>>> screen readers/braille displays
>>>>>
>>>>> That's all fine if one has/wants an Android tablet.
>>>>>
>>>>> That comment is not to do down your work, more a call to say "please
>>>>> put
>>>>> it in a more widely useful form". Personally I have absolutely no
>>>>> interest or intent in getting an Android tablet, probably as much
>>>>> political (I dislike the Google involvement) as much as practical
>>>>> (partially cost to use ratio, and also I have already some Apple
>>>>> products so other Apple products would probably fit better for sharing
>>>>> data/information). My view is that computers are more widely useful,
>>>>> many are likely to already have one/have access to one, there is a
>>>>> dominant OS (majority are windows) and there are tools which make it
>>>>> easy to make crossplatform applications (eg. Java), etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Whapples
>>>>> On 11/05/2012 00:52, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>>>>> We're working on some solutions for Maps and also diagrams such as
>>>>>> FlowCharts in my lab. An effort, for which I was quite humbled and
>>>>>> honored, to recently receive a Whitehouse Champions of Change award.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently, our system allows a blind student to interact with
>>>>>> Google maps via touch, voice, and keyboard. It runs on any Android
>>>>>> tablet, or really any decently recent Android powered device, and
>>>>>> facilitates this access to the map by utilizing the TIKISI
>>>>>> framework which I've developed as part of my doctoral studies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you promise not to judge draft level copy that is very much not
>>>>>> complete, you can read more about these efforts at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.AccessibleInfographics.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> we most recently made significant progress on FlowCharts, so I'll
>>>>>> be updating the FlowCharts section soon with a write-up of our
>>>>>> progress. Videos are forthcoming.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope this helps stimulate some discussion. Feel free to contact me
>>>>>> off list with questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>> Sina
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
>>>>>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:59 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Issues with electronic math files and
>>>>>> screen readers/braille displays
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You mentioned diagrams and maps, I am not sure if there is a purely
>>>>>> computer based solution which is satisfactory for those. I know
>>>>>> some use
>>>>>> the software called the vOICe (www.seeingwithsound.com), but I think
>>>>>> even users of that admit it has its limitations for what one can
>>>>>> understand in a diagram when using it. Also while I have looked at
>>>>>> it, I
>>>>>> have never really got to grips with it, I am not putting it down by
>>>>>> saying that, many find it useful and I think it possibly has value, I
>>>>>> rather mean I personally have never managed to get on with it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think certainly for the diagrams there may need to be a physical
>>>>>> diagram for blind students.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the maths, well there are bits and pieces out there which
>>>>>> can do
>>>>>> parts of it, but nothing really linked up. As Steve mentioned, may
>>>>>> be if
>>>>>> a state government pushes screen reader manufacturers then may be they
>>>>>> will feel there is a need and so will start working on the problem.
>>>>>> Until the screen reader providers start working on it those who do try
>>>>>> and make maths accessible will be working in quite a constrained
>>>>>> environment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael Whapples
>>>>>> On 10/05/2012 14:40, Patricia Balassone wrote:
>>>>>>> Thank you all, your feedback contains the kind of information I
>>>>>>> need to pass along. Although I only know a little about Nemeth and
>>>>>>> even less about programming, I know enough that I am also
>>>>>>> skeptical of the possibility for adequate adaptations.
>>>>>>> Unfortunately, providing a brailled hard copy with all possible
>>>>>>> answer scenarios for an exam that is answer driven is unrealistic.
>>>>>>> One of my suggestions, even though it will still be cumbersome,
>>>>>>> will be to supply tactile copies of all maps, diagrams, and
>>>>>>> equations for braille readers. Again, thank you for allowing me to
>>>>>>> tap into your knowledge and experience.
>>>>>>> Patricia Balassone
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