[Blindmath] LaTeX

Fri Jun 14 17:26:56 UTC 2013

Thanks a lot everyone.

Shalini
On 6/14/13, Jamal Mazrui <Jamal.Mazrui at fcc.gov> wrote:
> Interesting!  Makes me wonder whether a concerted effort to develop LaTeX
> extensions for friendlier use by blind persons would be worthwhile.  It
> might be a DSL (domain specific language) built on top of LaTeX.
>
> Jamal
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan
> Godfrey
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 6:36 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
>
> Hi all,
>
> Michael has picked up on most things I would have said, but here are a
> couple of other bits that I find useful.
>
> I frequently compile my latex documents into both pdf and xml. Many of my
> mathematical expressions are easily handled by mathplayer. Note that I can
> and usually do just read the latex source, because waiting for eyes to come
> through my office isn't always practical. This doesn't tell me about the
> possible overflows that exist on the printed pdf though. This is one problem
> I haven't found any useful solution for as yet. One day, I hope to have some
> sort of tactical rendering of the page so that line overflows stick out and
> I can pick them up.
>
> I frequently create my own latex commands. For example, I created a command
> called \SumAllI{} which just replaced the \sum_{i=1}^{n}{}. You might think
> this was just a bit unnecessary, but my command makes reading a long
> expression cleaner, especially when I then created other commands for
> summing over two and three counters., \DoubleSumIJ{} for example is much
> easier in Jaws than \sum_{i=1}^{n}{\sum_{j=1}^{p}{ }} especially given that
> these expressions don't even sum anything yet.
>
> To add to the list, I create codes for:
> - special characters such as mathematical symbols such as the set of
> integers.
> - acronyms that include symbols or unnecessarily long typing. In my thesis
> the expression G×E appeared frequently. In latex that's G$\times$E which is
> slower than my \GByE.
> - combination commands that change the font style and add the word to the
> index (OK serious stuff now but I need it.)
> - new figure and table environments. Yes I sometimes ignore the standard
> ones given in latex, well actually I build on top of them. I created
> environments that handled sets of graphs for example. I wanted every figure
> that had four small figures in it to look the same throughout my thesis. And
> then when I had six sub-figures they had to be rotated 90 degrees and always
> appear on a right hand page. The commands got complex so I fixed them once
> and used my substitute codes everywhere.
>
> My rule of thumb is "Jonathan's rule of two." If I do a task and I believe
> that in my lifetime I will do it twice, I write general code rather than
> specific code. It takes longer and often more than twice as long to do this
> but as soon as I do the task for the third time I save heaps of time. I
> apply my rule in any number of situations. If I can't do the job using
> software that allows me to work this way, I make time to switch my way of
> working. The two most obvious changes I have made in life is the abandonment
> of MS Office and Minitab. I still know how to use both of course, but I use
> them when I know the job doesn't warrant a general solution.
>
> A lot of what I've written here was built up over the last fifteen years. I
> wouldn't expect a latex novice to follow my way of working from the start.
> Learning a few tricks at the outset might help, but might also be a serious
> distraction.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> Whapples
> Sent: Friday, 14 June 2013 10:04 a.m.
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
>
> Yes I agree with what has been said about tools such as pdflatex working
> well, they are reliable enough one can almost always assume it has produced
> correct output for the code which was input. However the big problem is was
> the LaTeX source correct for what the author wanted? I actually put
> potential problems into three categories: Invalid code which will not
> compile and the LaTeX tools will give an error, LaTeX code which is valid
> but has problems the compiler knows will be giving poor output with the
> compiler giving a warning and valid LaTeX code where the user did not fully
> understand what the LaTeX source code will do.
>
> The first of these is easiest to spot, normally pdflatex or other compilers
> will stop requiring input from the user or if it does exit then you will
> know it failed as no PDF will be created. Also some editors might pick up on
> some of these errors and can take you to the location of the error in the
> source document.
>
> The hardest thing with errors is sometimes knowing where it came from, LaTeX
> might only pick up on the error much further on in the document than where
> the mistake was made (eg. if you forget to use a closing brace it might get
> to the end of the document before realising there is a problem). My advice
> would be to be careful while writing the LaTeX, if starting an environment
> put the end environment in at the same time and write between the two (some
> editors can do this automatically for you).
> Should errors still get in (they probably will) it can also be useful to
> keep compiling the LaTeX frequently, then you know only a small amount has
> been added since the last successful compile and so know if an error is
> there it must be in the small amount added.
>
> Catching warnings is harder, as I said the document will actually compile
> (eg. if you write a long equation but do not put in the line breaks so that
> it goes on multiple lines you may get a box over flow warning which alerts
> you the equation will fall off the page). My best advice is just look
> through the output of pdflatex checking for these. I know output from
> pdflatex can be quite a lot, some editors I think can also pick out warnings
> and give them in a list.
>
> The sort where the LaTeX source code does not do what the user thought it
> did is probably the hardest and one I have not really found a good solution
> to do independently. Some examples which have caught me out: In PGF/TikZ I
> did not realise that when drawing a line from a circle it would start at the
> centre of the circle. Another one was where I tried to include Python source
> code in the document (to show readers python source code), I got mixed up on
> which environments would preserve spaces as it is important for python
> code.
> I think in both cases I only found out by asking someone to give the
> documents a visual check. As one learns LaTeX these problems should become
> fewer but you probably will from time to time encounter one when you need to
> do something different.
> You possibly also will have ideas where there may be these sorts of
> problems, or at least know where visual appearance is most important, and so
> could go into more detail with the sighted person on those particular parts
> of the document and possibly skip other parts.
>
> Michael Whapples
> On 13/06/2013 19:31, Neil Soiffer wrote:
>> Just so there is no misunderstanding, I'm 100% behind most people's
>> suggestion that learning LaTeX for math is a good idea.  Any
>> mainstream LaTeX converter such as pdftex will do the conversion
>> properly.
>>
>> But, using LaTex has one really big problem if you are blind -- you'll
>> never know if you got it "right" or not.  It is very easy, even for
>> experienced TeX users to make a typo and that can result in either
>> fatal errors (you probably would get an error message about that) or
>> meaningful errors such as no exponent (missing "^") or wrong chars in
>> the
> exponent.
>>   Without visually "proofing" the answer, you don't know if what you
>> typed is right.  I suppose converting to MathML and then listening to
>> or brailling the convert result are ways to check whether you entered
>> it correctly.  Others on the list like Michael probably have developed
>> useful methods to checking what you typed.  I'm sure they join the
>> discussion with their suggestions.
>>
>> Neil Soiffer
>> Senior Scientist
>> Design Science, Inc.
>> www.dessci.com
>> ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor
>> ~
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Paul Chapin <pdchapin at amherst.edu>
> wrote:
>>
>>> There are several Latex to Mathml conversion programs out there and
>>> it would be interesting to see what people's experiences with them
>>> are, but if Shalini is preparing her material in Latex, wouldn't it
>>> be best if she did all her editing and proofing on the Latex side?
>>> She could then convert to a pdf and send that to the instructor. How
>>> comfortable are we with depending of the Latex to pdf conversion
>>> being
> correct?
>>>
>>> Paul Chapin
>>> Academic Technology Specialist
>>> Amherst College
>>> X2144
>>>
>>> Amherst College IT staff will never ask for your password, including
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>>> From: Shalini Menon
>>> <shalini1394 at gmail.com<mailto:shalini1394 at gmail.com>>
>>> Reply-To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
>>> blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
>>> Date: Thursday, June 13, 2013 12:55 PM
>>> To: "jtblas at hotmail.com<mailto:jtblas at hotmail.com>"
>>> <jtblas at hotmail.com <mailto:jtblas at hotmail.com>>, Blind Math list for
>>> those interested in mathematics
>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>> How do you convert LaTeX to MathML?
>>>
>>> Shalini
>>>
>>> On 6/13/13, Jose Tamayo
>>> <jtblas at hotmail.com<mailto:jtblas at hotmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> Well, let's check if the LaTeX - Access projectis further along.  IT
>>> promises to provide JAWS access to LaTeX through any of the standard
>>> windows applications or even Adobe reader.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jose Tamayo
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Rasmussen, Lloyd
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 12:19 PM
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
>>>
>>> There is nothing you can do with a screen reader and Adobe Reader to
>>> make PDF math readable.  You either have to learn LaTeX syntax or
>>> convert the expressions to MathML.
>>>
>>> Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Project Engineer National Library Service for
>>> the Blind and Physically Handicapped
>>> Library of Congress   202-707-0535
>>> http://www.loc.gov/nls
>>> The preceding opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect
>>> those of the Library of Congress, NLS.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Shalini Menon
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 11:12 AM
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot Jonathan.
>>> I have another question. I have been able to write out Math equations
>>> in LaTeX, but Jaws isn't able to read it very well when I convert it
>>> to a PDF document. Do I need to convert the LaTeX document to MathML
>>> and then read it with Math player, or do I need to make changes to
>>> Jaws settings?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Shalini
>>> ...
>>>
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