[Blindmath] LaTeX

Fri Jun 14 22:16:55 UTC 2013

The power to extend TeX as you do is what has kept TeX alive for close to
30 years.  It is also what makes it so hard to use for input to other
programs.  If you past TeX with those extensions into another program such
as MathType or a web page using MathJax, it won't know what they mean --
that code won't be portable.

Power is a two-edged sword...

Neil Soiffer
Senior Scientist
Design Science, Inc.
www.dessci.com
~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor ~

On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Jonathan Godfrey
<a.j.godfrey at massey.ac.nz>wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Michael has picked up on most things I would have said, but here are a
> couple of other bits that I find useful.
>
> I frequently compile my latex documents into both pdf and xml. Many of my
> mathematical expressions are easily handled by mathplayer. Note that I can
> and usually do just read the latex source, because waiting for eyes to come
> through my office isn't always practical. This doesn't tell me about the
> possible overflows that exist on the printed pdf though. This is one
> problem
> I haven't found any useful solution for as yet. One day, I hope to have
> some
> sort of tactical rendering of the page so that line overflows stick out and
> I can pick them up.
>
> I frequently create my own latex commands. For example, I created a command
> called \SumAllI{} which just replaced the \sum_{i=1}^{n}{}. You might think
> this was just a bit unnecessary, but my command makes reading a long
> expression cleaner, especially when I then created other commands for
> summing over two and three counters., \DoubleSumIJ{} for example is much
> easier in Jaws than \sum_{i=1}^{n}{\sum_{j=1}^{p}{ }} especially given that
> these expressions don't even sum anything yet.
>
> To add to the list, I create codes for:
> - special characters such as mathematical symbols such as the set of
> integers.
> - acronyms that include symbols or unnecessarily long typing. In my thesis
> the expression G×E appeared frequently. In latex that's G$\times$E which is
> slower than my \GByE.
> - combination commands that change the font style and add the word to the
> index (OK serious stuff now but I need it.)
> - new figure and table environments. Yes I sometimes ignore the standard
> ones given in latex, well actually I build on top of them. I created
> environments that handled sets of graphs for example. I wanted every figure
> that had four small figures in it to look the same throughout my thesis.
> And
> then when I had six sub-figures they had to be rotated 90 degrees and
> always
> appear on a right hand page. The commands got complex so I fixed them once
> and used my substitute codes everywhere.
>
> My rule of thumb is "Jonathan's rule of two." If I do a task and I believe
> that in my lifetime I will do it twice, I write general code rather than
> specific code. It takes longer and often more than twice as long to do this
> but as soon as I do the task for the third time I save heaps of time. I
> apply my rule in any number of situations. If I can't do the job using
> software that allows me to work this way, I make time to switch my way of
> working. The two most obvious changes I have made in life is the
> abandonment
> of MS Office and Minitab. I still know how to use both of course, but I use
> them when I know the job doesn't warrant a general solution.
>
> A lot of what I've written here was built up over the last fifteen years. I
> wouldn't expect a latex novice to follow my way of working from the start.
> Learning a few tricks at the outset might help, but might also be a serious
> distraction.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> Whapples
> Sent: Friday, 14 June 2013 10:04 a.m.
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
>
> Yes I agree with what has been said about tools such as pdflatex working
> well, they are reliable enough one can almost always assume it has produced
> correct output for the code which was input. However the big problem is was
> the LaTeX source correct for what the author wanted? I actually put
> potential problems into three categories: Invalid code which will not
> compile and the LaTeX tools will give an error, LaTeX code which is valid
> but has problems the compiler knows will be giving poor output with the
> compiler giving a warning and valid LaTeX code where the user did not fully
> understand what the LaTeX source code will do.
>
> The first of these is easiest to spot, normally pdflatex or other compilers
> will stop requiring input from the user or if it does exit then you will
> know it failed as no PDF will be created. Also some editors might pick up
> on
> some of these errors and can take you to the location of the error in the
> source document.
>
> The hardest thing with errors is sometimes knowing where it came from,
> LaTeX
> might only pick up on the error much further on in the document than where
> the mistake was made (eg. if you forget to use a closing brace it might get
> to the end of the document before realising there is a problem). My advice
> would be to be careful while writing the LaTeX, if starting an environment
> put the end environment in at the same time and write between the two (some
> editors can do this automatically for you).
> Should errors still get in (they probably will) it can also be useful to
> keep compiling the LaTeX frequently, then you know only a small amount has
> been added since the last successful compile and so know if an error is
> there it must be in the small amount added.
>
> Catching warnings is harder, as I said the document will actually compile
> (eg. if you write a long equation but do not put in the line breaks so that
> it goes on multiple lines you may get a box over flow warning which alerts
> you the equation will fall off the page). My best advice is just look
> through the output of pdflatex checking for these. I know output from
> pdflatex can be quite a lot, some editors I think can also pick out
> warnings
> and give them in a list.
>
> The sort where the LaTeX source code does not do what the user thought it
> did is probably the hardest and one I have not really found a good solution
> to do independently. Some examples which have caught me out: In PGF/TikZ I
> did not realise that when drawing a line from a circle it would start at
> the
> centre of the circle. Another one was where I tried to include Python
> source
> code in the document (to show readers python source code), I got mixed up
> on
> which environments would preserve spaces as it is important for python
> code.
> I think in both cases I only found out by asking someone to give the
> documents a visual check. As one learns LaTeX these problems should become
> fewer but you probably will from time to time encounter one when you need
> to
> do something different.
> You possibly also will have ideas where there may be these sorts of
> problems, or at least know where visual appearance is most important, and
> so
> could go into more detail with the sighted person on those particular parts
> of the document and possibly skip other parts.
>
> Michael Whapples
> On 13/06/2013 19:31, Neil Soiffer wrote:
> > Just so there is no misunderstanding, I'm 100% behind most people's
> > suggestion that learning LaTeX for math is a good idea.  Any
> > mainstream LaTeX converter such as pdftex will do the conversion
> properly.
> >
> > But, using LaTex has one really big problem if you are blind -- you'll
> > never know if you got it "right" or not.  It is very easy, even for
> > experienced TeX users to make a typo and that can result in either
> > fatal errors (you probably would get an error message about that) or
> > meaningful errors such as no exponent (missing "^") or wrong chars in the
> exponent.
> >   Without visually "proofing" the answer, you don't know if what you
> > typed is right.  I suppose converting to MathML and then listening to
> > or brailling the convert result are ways to check whether you entered
> > it correctly.  Others on the list like Michael probably have developed
> > useful methods to checking what you typed.  I'm sure they join the
> > discussion with their suggestions.
> >
> > Neil Soiffer
> > Senior Scientist
> > Design Science, Inc.
> > www.dessci.com
> > ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor
> > ~
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Paul Chapin <pdchapin at amherst.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >> There are several Latex to Mathml conversion programs out there and
> >> it would be interesting to see what people's experiences with them
> >> are, but if Shalini is preparing her material in Latex, wouldn't it
> >> be best if she did all her editing and proofing on the Latex side?
> >> She could then convert to a pdf and send that to the instructor. How
> >> comfortable are we with depending of the Latex to pdf conversion being
> correct?
> >>
> >> Paul Chapin
> >> Academic Technology Specialist
> >> Amherst College
> >> X2144
> >>
> >> Amherst College IT staff will never ask for your password, including
> >> by email. Any email asking for any password or username is almost
> >> certainly bogus. Never click on a link in an email to a site that
> >> requires a login as the link may be bogus. Type in the address
> >> yourself. Please keep your passwords private to protect yourself and the
> security of our network.
> >>
> >> From: Shalini Menon
> >> <shalini1394 at gmail.com<mailto:shalini1394 at gmail.com>>
> >> Reply-To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
> >> blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
> >> Date: Thursday, June 13, 2013 12:55 PM
> >> To: "jtblas at hotmail.com<mailto:jtblas at hotmail.com>"
> >> <jtblas at hotmail.com <mailto:jtblas at hotmail.com>>, Blind Math list for
> >> those interested in mathematics
> >> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >> How do you convert LaTeX to MathML?
> >>
> >> Shalini
> >>
> >> On 6/13/13, Jose Tamayo
> >> <jtblas at hotmail.com<mailto:jtblas at hotmail.com>>
> >> wrote:
> >> Well, let's check if the LaTeX - Access projectis further along.  IT
> >> promises to provide JAWS access to LaTeX through any of the standard
> >> windows applications or even Adobe reader.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Jose Tamayo
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >> Rasmussen, Lloyd
> >> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 12:19 PM
> >> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
> >>
> >> There is nothing you can do with a screen reader and Adobe Reader to
> >> make PDF math readable.  You either have to learn LaTeX syntax or
> >> convert the expressions to MathML.
> >>
> >> Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Project Engineer National Library Service for
> >> the Blind and Physically Handicapped
> >> Library of Congress   202-707-0535
> >> http://www.loc.gov/nls
> >> The preceding opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect
> >> those of the Library of Congress, NLS.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >> Shalini Menon
> >> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 11:12 AM
> >> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX
> >>
> >> Thanks a lot Jonathan.
> >> I have another question. I have been able to write out Math equations
> >> in LaTeX, but Jaws isn't able to read it very well when I convert it
> >> to a PDF document. Do I need to convert the LaTeX document to MathML
> >> and then read it with Math player, or do I need to make changes to
> >> Jaws settings?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Shalini
> >> ...
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blindmath mailing list
> >> Blindmath at host.nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at host.nfbnet.org>
> >> http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> Blindmath:
> >>
> >> http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/jtblas%40
> >> hotmail
> >> .com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blindmath mailing list
> >> Blindmath at host.nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at host.nfbnet.org>
> >> http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> Blindmath:
> >>
> >> http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/shalini13
> >> 94%40gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blindmath mailing list
> >> Blindmath at host.nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at host.nfbnet.org>
> >> http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> Blindmath:
> >>
> >> http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/pdchapin%
> >> 40amherst.edu
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blindmath mailing list
> >> Blindmath at host.nfbnet.org
> >> http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> Blindmath:
> >>
> >> http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/neils%40d
> >> essci.com
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blindmath mailing list
> > Blindmath at host.nfbnet.org
> > http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Blindmath:
> > http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%
> > 40aim.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at host.nfbnet.org
> http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Blindmath:
>
> http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40ma
> ssey.ac.nz
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at host.nfbnet.org
> http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Blindmath:
>
> http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/neils%40dessci.com
>