[Blindmath] suggestions for accessible 3d graphing paper giids

sabra1023 sabra1023 at gmail.com
Sat Nov 23 18:31:14 UTC 2013 

I don't understand why sighted people make such a big deal about interpretations of 3-D objects. I was asked to interpret 2-D representations in school. It was upsetting to me, made me feel like there was something wrong with me, and insured that I never understood the actual mathematical concepts. I prefer an environment where I am encouraged to learn in the way I best process information, not one where I am condemned for not processing information in the same way as a sighted person. Further, there is no real world application to having this pointless difficult to attain skill. If you are in a work situation, or even in college, people won't stop you from having a 3-D object. In fact, this approach might be encouraged because it takes time to draw out those complex tactile pictures.

> On Nov 23, 2013, at 8:30 AM, "Lewicki, Maureen" <mlewicki at bcsd.neric.org> wrote:
> 
> By the way,Andy,I have been sighted all  my life and I can't draw in perspective!
> 
> In art class we were taught to draw what we  see. They would put out an apple,an orange, and a bottle for us to copy. Good joke. My pictures looked like circles laying on each other. As a kid when I had to illustrate my compositions, I always would  draw what I could draw, a tree trunk. No matter what the story was about! I never understood shading, either.
> 
> Would you all forgive me if this sounds patronizing??!! The sighted, including myself, will never fully understand the richness of the textures that the blind experience, the sound of shadows, the boldness of smells, good and bad, and the layers of sound(the way i think my students may have learned to hear..I hear noises in the hallways, for example,but my students want the door closed. I THINK it is because that is not just noise and indiscriminate voices as it is for me. I THINK it is because they are hearing the noises in layers, if you will...dimensions??perspective??
> 
> Goodness forgive me! I forgot this is a math site, so I may have gone too far off topic.
> 
> Bottom line, when we have to understand pictures of solids, I show my students the picture,and then hand them a solid. The AHHA I hear when I place the solid in their hand is confirmation to me that the picture is lame, but the solid is worth a 1000 words!
> 
> Maureen Lewicki
> Teacher of the Visually Impaired
> Bethlehem Central Schools
> 700 Delaware Avenue
> Delmar, NY 12054
> http://bcsd.k12.ny.us/
> 
> 
> On Nov 22, 2013, at 10:39 PM, "Andy B." <sonfire11 at gmail.com<mailto:sonfire11 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> My wife knows the basics, but that is all. I could see before, so have an
> advantage. I used to be an artist (drawings) when I could see. The way to
> get a 3d object to appear to be contained on a 2d object such as a page of
> paper includes perspectives, but it also includes shadowing.
> Shadowing/shading a 1d or 2d circle in specific locations to give it the
> appearance of a 3d ball. It is a matter of interpreting the light source and
> what direction it is coming from.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amanda
> Lacy
> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 7:42 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] suggestions for accessible 3d graphing paper giids
> 
> I didn't even know the word "perspective" until I was in college. Early in
> high school I remember being told that the reason I couldn't understand
> those 3D pictures was because I wasn't trying hard enough. So I tried to
> imagine how I could take a 3D object and make it into what was on the paper
> - by flattening it, of course. If I flattened a sphere, fore example, I
> would get a circle, which is pretty much what they would show when they
> meant sphere, but if I flattened a box I would never, ever get that strange
> thing that was on the page. Maybe I was supposed to unfold it like a
> cardboard box? I really tried to solve this puzzle but couldn't. A sighted
> tutor at the Texas School for the Blind recently told me that he could teach
> people who were blind from birth to interpret these representations, but I
> have never once heard of someone like myself being able to comprehend them.
> I've heard of at least one person memorizing the basic shapes, but no real
> understanding had taken place. Has anyone who has never seen been able to
> touch a raised 3D picture and truly know what it's supposed to represent?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu<mailto:jheim at math.wisc.edu>>
> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 2:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] suggestions for accessible 3d graphing paper giids
> 
> 
> People don't realize that drawing in perspective is an invention.
> Before some time around 1300, when creating  paintings, artists didn't
> regularly even do things like make objects smaller to make them look
> like they were further away. These days, sighted people take this
> concept of perspective for granted but for most of human history, it
> didn't even exist.
> 
> I work on the 5th floor in  the math building on the campus of the
> University of Wisconsin. On the wall by the elevator, there is a
> raised number 5. Under that is the number 5 in braille. That raised
> number would mean nothing to someone who has never seen the number 5
> in print. I am presuming it's there for people who lost their sight.
> But the braille 5 and the printed 5 are equally valid representations of
> the concept of 5.
> Certainly the printed symbol 5 would be recognized by more people even
> so, they are equally valid representations of the concept of the number 5.
> 
> A graph is just like that. A graph is not the actual data, it's a
> symbolic representation of the data. Any decent instructor would know
> that.  Yet, all too often on this list, we hear of instructors saying
> that math is too visual by nature for a blind student to grasp.  It's
> ridiculous.
> 
> There is absolutely nothing in mathematics that is innately visual.
> In fact, the less you rely on the symbolic representations of the
> concepts, the better off you are. It's impossible to communicate
> mathematical concepts without symbols -- words, print, or braill --
> these are all symbols. But when you are working on the concepts in
> your own mind, the symbols can only get in the way. If adequate tools
> existed for 3D graphics,  a blind student might very well be better at
> it than a sighted student who might be locked into this inadequate
> perspective drawing concept.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/22/13 11:46, sabra1023 wrote:
> I think if you're going to graphic having the Z axis in the air would
> be the best option. I've been blind from birth, and while I
> understand that sighted people delude themselves into thinking a one
> dimensional picture is a three-dimensional object, I do not
> understand most of the time how they come to their conclusions about
> this. They continually treat their pictures as if they're actually
> objects, which annoys me to no end.
> Through school, I was just given tactile pictures and taught the way
> cited people learn. As a result, I thought there was something wrong
> with my brain and that I could never succeed in math because I
> couldn't understand their pictures, methods for representing things, and
> examples.
> I have come to learn that my brain processes information differently
> then cited people, but I am still debating with myself as to whether
> this means it isn't working or not. The point is that now, I can do
> well in math without their difficult and unnatural ways of doing th
> in
> gs holding me back. When sighted people look at three-dimensional
> representations, there really looking at optical illusions. My brain
> doesn't process these illusions. I think it means I'll be better
> equipped to do math beyond the third dimension, but it also means I
> can't tolerate an accurate representation of the third dimension and
> beyond. The z-axis may appear to be floating above the quadrant, but
> it actually isn't because The quadrant is now three-dimensional.
> That's why I think it's even bad for sighted people to represent three
> dimensions as pictures.
> 
> On Nov 22, 2013, at 4:58 AM, "Mary Woodyard"
> <marywoodyard at comcast.net<mailto:marywoodyard at comcast.net>>
> wrote:
> 
> My son will be starting a 3d graphing unit that is fairly short (2
> weeks) in
> about a week.  He spent some time searching online with his Math
> tutor for 3d Graphing paper and this is the graph paper that they
> found that worked the best for his vision from what they were able
> to find in free 3d graph paper options.  Does anyone know of a more
> accessible free (or low cost) option?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mary Woodyard
> Parent, 17 year old visually impaired student
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> blindmath-request at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-request at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 7:00 AM
> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Blindmath Digest, Vol 88, Issue 12
> 
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>  1. Re: Latex training (John Gardner)
>  2. A project to advance MathML support in browsers (Andrew Stacey)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 20:21:50 -0800
> From: "John Gardner" <gardnerj at onid.orst.edu<mailto:gardnerj at onid.orst.edu>>
> To: "'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'"
>   <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Latex training
> Message-ID: <00cd01cee671$334eac90$99ec05b0$@orst.edu<mailto:00cd01cee671$334eac90$99ec05b0$@orst.edu>>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Another suggestion.  There's lots of Latex materials on
> www.access2science.com<http://www.access2science.com>
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> Godfrey,
> Jonathan
> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 1:42 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Latex training
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> I haven't got access to the net with sufficient time to find the exact
> link
> for you but look for the Summery University held in conjunction with the
> ICCHP. Sessions were recorded from 2010 onwards. I'm not sure if the
> 2013
> ones are uploaded yet but the files mentioned should all be there for
> reference purposes.
> J
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> Chapin
> Sent: Thursday, 21 November 2013 8:51 a.m.
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: [Blindmath] Latex training
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm looking for suggestions for material, courses, tutorials or anything
> else that can be used to teach a student the basics of Latex.
> 
> Paul Chapin
> Academic Technology Specialist
> Amherst College
> X2144
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:00:00 +0100
> From: Andrew Stacey <andrew.stacey at math.ntnu.no<mailto:andrew.stacey at math.ntnu.no>>
> To: Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
> Subject: [Blindmath] A project to advance MathML support in browsers
> Message-ID: <20131121080000.GA590 at dhcp-020041.wlan.ntnu.no<mailto:20131121080000.GA590 at dhcp-020041.wlan.ntnu.no>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> I'd like to bring to everyone's attention a project to advance browser
> and
> e-reader support for MathML.  The project description itself is very
> detailed, and explicitly mentions the issue of accessibility in the
> motivation section.
> 
> The person behind this project is Fr?d?ric Wang.  He is one of the
> people
> who has worked hard on MathML support in browser technology over the
> last
> few years, so is best placed to know what the issues are and what the
> next
> stage in development should be.  So if anyone is going to improved
> matters,
> he's the best choice.
> 
> He's looking for funding so that he can spend some time concentrating on
> MathML development and the website is on a crowd-funding site where
> people
> can contribute.  The actual amount that he is trying to raise is not
> actually all that much, particularly given the wide-ranging benefits
> that
> could follow from this.
> 
> I hope that all of you will consider supporting this project, and that
> some
> of you will actually do so.
> 
> The website is: http://www.ulule.com/mathematics-ebooks/
> 
> Andrew Stacey
> 
> 
> 
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> --
> ---
> John G. Heim, 608-263-4189, jheim at math.wisc.edu<mailto:jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> 
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