[Blindmath] suggestions for accessible 3d graphing paper giids

Sat Nov 23 18:35:50 UTC 2013

Sightlings are surrounded by pictures, so without thinking about it many of 
them do assume this skill has many real world applications. For us it 
doesn't , because we are surrounded by only real objects.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "sabra1023" <sabra1023 at gmail.com>
To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" 
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" 
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] suggestions for accessible 3d graphing paper giids


>I don't understand why sighted people make such a big deal about 
>interpretations of 3-D objects. I was asked to interpret 2-D 
>representations in school. It was upsetting to me, made me feel like there 
>was something wrong with me, and insured that I never understood the actual 
>mathematical concepts. I prefer an environment where I am encouraged to 
>learn in the way I best process information, not one where I am condemned 
>for not processing information in the same way as a sighted person. 
>Further, there is no real world application to having this pointless 
>difficult to attain skill. If you are in a work situation, or even in 
>college, people won't stop you from having a 3-D object. In fact, this 
>approach might be encouraged because it takes time to draw out those 
>complex tactile pictures.
>
>> On Nov 23, 2013, at 8:30 AM, "Lewicki, Maureen" <mlewicki at bcsd.neric.org> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> By the way,Andy,I have been sighted all  my life and I can't draw in 
>> perspective!
>>
>> In art class we were taught to draw what we  see. They would put out an 
>> apple,an orange, and a bottle for us to copy. Good joke. My pictures 
>> looked like circles laying on each other. As a kid when I had to 
>> illustrate my compositions, I always would  draw what I could draw, a 
>> tree trunk. No matter what the story was about! I never understood 
>> shading, either.
>>
>> Would you all forgive me if this sounds patronizing??!! The sighted, 
>> including myself, will never fully understand the richness of the 
>> textures that the blind experience, the sound of shadows, the boldness of 
>> smells, good and bad, and the layers of sound(the way i think my students 
>> may have learned to hear..I hear noises in the hallways, for example,but 
>> my students want the door closed. I THINK it is because that is not just 
>> noise and indiscriminate voices as it is for me. I THINK it is because 
>> they are hearing the noises in layers, if you 
>> will...dimensions??perspective??
>>
>> Goodness forgive me! I forgot this is a math site, so I may have gone too 
>> far off topic.
>>
>> Bottom line, when we have to understand pictures of solids, I show my 
>> students the picture,and then hand them a solid. The AHHA I hear when I 
>> place the solid in their hand is confirmation to me that the picture is 
>> lame, but the solid is worth a 1000 words!
>>
>> Maureen Lewicki
>> Teacher of the Visually Impaired
>> Bethlehem Central Schools
>> 700 Delaware Avenue
>> Delmar, NY 12054
>> http://bcsd.k12.ny.us/
>>
>>
>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 10:39 PM, "Andy B." 
>> <sonfire11 at gmail.com<mailto:sonfire11 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> My wife knows the basics, but that is all. I could see before, so have an
>> advantage. I used to be an artist (drawings) when I could see. The way to
>> get a 3d object to appear to be contained on a 2d object such as a page 
>> of
>> paper includes perspectives, but it also includes shadowing.
>> Shadowing/shading a 1d or 2d circle in specific locations to give it the
>> appearance of a 3d ball. It is a matter of interpreting the light source 
>> and
>> what direction it is coming from.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amanda
>> Lacy
>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 7:42 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] suggestions for accessible 3d graphing paper 
>> giids
>>
>> I didn't even know the word "perspective" until I was in college. Early 
>> in
>> high school I remember being told that the reason I couldn't understand
>> those 3D pictures was because I wasn't trying hard enough. So I tried to
>> imagine how I could take a 3D object and make it into what was on the 
>> paper
>> - by flattening it, of course. If I flattened a sphere, fore example, I
>> would get a circle, which is pretty much what they would show when they
>> meant sphere, but if I flattened a box I would never, ever get that 
>> strange
>> thing that was on the page. Maybe I was supposed to unfold it like a
>> cardboard box? I really tried to solve this puzzle but couldn't. A 
>> sighted
>> tutor at the Texas School for the Blind recently told me that he could 
>> teach
>> people who were blind from birth to interpret these representations, but 
>> I
>> have never once heard of someone like myself being able to comprehend 
>> them.
>> I've heard of at least one person memorizing the basic shapes, but no 
>> real
>> understanding had taken place. Has anyone who has never seen been able to
>> touch a raised 3D picture and truly know what it's supposed to represent?
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu<mailto:jheim at math.wisc.edu>>
>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 2:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] suggestions for accessible 3d graphing paper 
>> giids
>>
>>
>> People don't realize that drawing in perspective is an invention.
>> Before some time around 1300, when creating  paintings, artists didn't
>> regularly even do things like make objects smaller to make them look
>> like they were further away. These days, sighted people take this
>> concept of perspective for granted but for most of human history, it
>> didn't even exist.
>>
>> I work on the 5th floor in  the math building on the campus of the
>> University of Wisconsin. On the wall by the elevator, there is a
>> raised number 5. Under that is the number 5 in braille. That raised
>> number would mean nothing to someone who has never seen the number 5
>> in print. I am presuming it's there for people who lost their sight.
>> But the braille 5 and the printed 5 are equally valid representations of
>> the concept of 5.
>> Certainly the printed symbol 5 would be recognized by more people even
>> so, they are equally valid representations of the concept of the number 
>> 5.
>>
>> A graph is just like that. A graph is not the actual data, it's a
>> symbolic representation of the data. Any decent instructor would know
>> that.  Yet, all too often on this list, we hear of instructors saying
>> that math is too visual by nature for a blind student to grasp.  It's
>> ridiculous.
>>
>> There is absolutely nothing in mathematics that is innately visual.
>> In fact, the less you rely on the symbolic representations of the
>> concepts, the better off you are. It's impossible to communicate
>> mathematical concepts without symbols -- words, print, or braill --
>> these are all symbols. But when you are working on the concepts in
>> your own mind, the symbols can only get in the way. If adequate tools
>> existed for 3D graphics,  a blind student might very well be better at
>> it than a sighted student who might be locked into this inadequate
>> perspective drawing concept.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/22/13 11:46, sabra1023 wrote:
>> I think if you're going to graphic having the Z axis in the air would
>> be the best option. I've been blind from birth, and while I
>> understand that sighted people delude themselves into thinking a one
>> dimensional picture is a three-dimensional object, I do not
>> understand most of the time how they come to their conclusions about
>> this. They continually treat their pictures as if they're actually
>> objects, which annoys me to no end.
>> Through school, I was just given tactile pictures and taught the way
>> cited people learn. As a result, I thought there was something wrong
>> with my brain and that I could never succeed in math because I
>> couldn't understand their pictures, methods for representing things, and
>> examples.
>> I have come to learn that my brain processes information differently
>> then cited people, but I am still debating with myself as to whether
>> this means it isn't working or not. The point is that now, I can do
>> well in math without their difficult and unnatural ways of doing th
>> in
>> gs holding me back. When sighted people look at three-dimensional
>> representations, there really looking at optical illusions. My brain
>> doesn't process these illusions. I think it means I'll be better
>> equipped to do math beyond the third dimension, but it also means I
>> can't tolerate an accurate representation of the third dimension and
>> beyond. The z-axis may appear to be floating above the quadrant, but
>> it actually isn't because The quadrant is now three-dimensional.
>> That's why I think it's even bad for sighted people to represent three
>> dimensions as pictures.
>>
>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 4:58 AM, "Mary Woodyard"
>> <marywoodyard at comcast.net<mailto:marywoodyard at comcast.net>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> My son will be starting a 3d graphing unit that is fairly short (2
>> weeks) in
>> about a week.  He spent some time searching online with his Math
>> tutor for 3d Graphing paper and this is the graph paper that they
>> found that worked the best for his vision from what they were able
>> to find in free 3d graph paper options.  Does anyone know of a more
>> accessible free (or low cost) option?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Mary Woodyard
>> Parent, 17 year old visually impaired student
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> blindmath-request at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-request at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 7:00 AM
>> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Blindmath Digest, Vol 88, Issue 12
>>
>> Send Blindmath mailing list submissions to
>>   blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>   http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>   blindmath-request at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-request at nfbnet.org>
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>   blindmath-owner at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-owner at nfbnet.org>
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
>> "Re: Contents of Blindmath digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>  1. Re: Latex training (John Gardner)
>>  2. A project to advance MathML support in browsers (Andrew Stacey)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 20:21:50 -0800
>> From: "John Gardner" 
>> <gardnerj at onid.orst.edu<mailto:gardnerj at onid.orst.edu>>
>> To: "'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'"
>>   <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Latex training
>> Message-ID: 
>> <00cd01cee671$334eac90$99ec05b0$@orst.edu<mailto:00cd01cee671$334eac90$99ec05b0$@orst.edu>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Another suggestion.  There's lots of Latex materials on
>> www.access2science.com<http://www.access2science.com>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Godfrey,
>> Jonathan
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 1:42 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Latex training
>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> I haven't got access to the net with sufficient time to find the exact
>> link
>> for you but look for the Summery University held in conjunction with the
>> ICCHP. Sessions were recorded from 2010 onwards. I'm not sure if the
>> 2013
>> ones are uploaded yet but the files mentioned should all be there for
>> reference purposes.
>> J
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Paul
>> Chapin
>> Sent: Thursday, 21 November 2013 8:51 a.m.
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: [Blindmath] Latex training
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm looking for suggestions for material, courses, tutorials or anything
>> else that can be used to teach a student the basics of Latex.
>>
>> Paul Chapin
>> Academic Technology Specialist
>> Amherst College
>> X2144
>>
>> Amherst College IT staff will never ask for your password, including by
>> email. Any email asking for any password or username is almost certainly
>> bogus. Never click on a link in an email to a site that requires a login
>>
>> as
>> the link may be bogus. Type in the address yourself. Please keep your
>> passwords private to protect yourself and the security of our network.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Blindmath:
>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.
>> ac.nz<http://ac.nz>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Blindmath:
>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/john.gardner%40orst.e
>> du
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:00:00 +0100
>> From: Andrew Stacey 
>> <andrew.stacey at math.ntnu.no<mailto:andrew.stacey at math.ntnu.no>>
>> To: Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
>> Subject: [Blindmath] A project to advance MathML support in browsers
>> Message-ID: 
>> <20131121080000.GA590 at dhcp-020041.wlan.ntnu.no<mailto:20131121080000.GA590 at dhcp-020041.wlan.ntnu.no>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I'd like to bring to everyone's attention a project to advance browser
>> and
>> e-reader support for MathML.  The project description itself is very
>> detailed, and explicitly mentions the issue of accessibility in the
>> motivation section.
>>
>> The person behind this project is Fr?d?ric Wang.  He is one of the
>> people
>> who has worked hard on MathML support in browser technology over the
>> last
>> few years, so is best placed to know what the issues are and what the
>> next
>> stage in development should be.  So if anyone is going to improved
>> matters,
>> he's the best choice.
>>
>> He's looking for funding so that he can spend some time concentrating on
>> MathML development and the website is on a crowd-funding site where
>> people
>> can contribute.  The actual amount that he is trying to raise is not
>> actually all that much, particularly given the wide-ranging benefits
>> that
>> could follow from this.
>>
>> I hope that all of you will consider supporting this project, and that
>> some
>> of you will actually do so.
>>
>> The website is: http://www.ulule.com/mathematics-ebooks/
>>
>> Andrew Stacey
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Blindmath Digest, Vol 88, Issue 12
>> *****************************************
>> <3D Gra3.gif>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Blindmath:
>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sabra1023%40gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Blindmath:
>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
>>
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> John G. Heim, 608-263-4189, 
>> jheim at math.wisc.edu<mailto:jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Blindmath:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/lacy925%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Blindmath:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sonfire11%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Blindmath:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mlewicki%40bcsd.neric.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Blindmath:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sabra1023%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Blindmath:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/lacy925%40gmail.com