[Blindmath] superscript on an APEX question

Andy B. sonfire11 at gmail.com
Wed Oct 2 13:52:13 UTC 2013 

Doesn't the typical standard for math (whatever it is called) define a
particular order that math problems are required to use? If not, then
professors are grading math homework in whatever style they want, and that
isn't good.


-----Original Message-----
From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
Jolls
Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2013 8:57 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] superscript on an APEX question

That was the goal of my package ... let's say Nemeth is the standard.  The
teacher should be able to compose in what he or she understands ... even if
they don't know Nemeth .. and the app takes care of the translation for the
student.  Then, the student does his work in Nemeth, saves the work, and
hands it back to the teacher.  The teacher opens the file, the contents get
translated from Nemeth back to what the teacher understands.  And you're
right ... such a project would take a tremendous amount of testing.  To make
it easy on the end users, it would require applying a principle I coined
some years ago ... "easy is hard" ... meaning "easy on you is hard on me"
(or rather the programmer).  I'll have to do a LOT of work and testing to
get it right so it makes it easy on you.  But that's the goal of software,
right?  Analyze the problem, understand the target standards, and code to
that.  And then test the crap out of it to make sure you eliminate the bugs
so it's seamless for the end-user.  Where I work, that's what I do.
Customers like my software.  There's rarely bugs unless it's something I
just didn't think of.  Software usually works the first time when it gets
off my desk.  

 

But to do that, you have to have the standards defined.  From what I'm
seeing, a lot of people are going in a lot of different directions.  is BANA
involved at all in developing a standard math "language" or "format" (call
it what you will) that says ... "to present math problems, here is what you
should code to"?  I think that needs to be done or else we're going to have
people going in their own favorite direction and producing multiple
solutions meaning someone has to buy several packages.  
 

> From: louis at braillesoft.net
> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 18:33:26 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] superscript on an APEX question
> 
> Hi. From my end, Nemeth would be the way to go. I'm with you. I also want
an all-in-one, inexpensive solution. You shouldn't have to use any other
apps at all, because if you take the time, the sighted person should be able
to use your program just the same, even if they don't know Nemeth. And, if
the blind person needed to show their work to a sighted teacher, they can do
it from the exact same program.
> This isn't an easy task, no matter how you look at it. It takes a lot of
coding, testing, and making sure information is presented in such a way that
the end-user can understand it. But one or two people have got to do it, and
I definitely love the challenge. Believe it or not, I've always hated math,
until I begun this project.
> Instead of backing out completely, would you like to be a tester and help
shape the future of such a product, or, if you continued your own, yours may
have features no one else's has?
> Best, Louis
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Jolls <mrspock56 at hotmail.com>
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics 
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 5:56 pm
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] superscript on an APEX question
> 
> >
> >
> > With all these solutions out there ... and people have been working on
them for a lot longer than I have .. perhaps I should just bow out of this.
> > The thing I hate to see is that people have to buy 3 or 4 programs
(expensive programs) to translate from one thing to another to another to
another.
> > The program I was working on I was going to maybe make SOME money, but
offer it at a very reasonable price ... maybe $50 a copy. Not $500 a copy.
The point is to help people, not gouge them ... even though as a software
engineer myself ... I do understand that a person writing software wants to
make their money back after they invest a lot of time. But in my mind
allowing a blind person to have access to the math ... to maybe have an
opportunity that they didn't have before ... is fundamental right. Not
something for someone to be denied because they can't afford the software
that would let them do it. That's why I was going to try and do it cheaply.
> > 
> > It seems to me that ... and this addresses one of the previous
respondents ... the computer SHOULD be able to do all these translations
flawlessly ... provided of course that all the rules have been defined.
That's really the key to being able to do something like this. The rules
HAVE to be defined. And the standard formats that you are going to generate
and translate. All of that has to be known for people to provide solutions
which will work on any platform.
> > 
> > What I had in mind would be .....
> > 
> > 1. Teacher enters the math problems into MS Word or some other 
> > software they use 2. The math program reads the MS Word file, identifies
all symbols by their ASCII (or other) code, and has a translation algorithm
to translate them to a Braille file.
> > 3. The Notetaker, or software running on a PC or Mac, reads the
translated Braille file and represents them on a Braille display.
> > Heck, you could even have the math program in step 2 write out an
intermediate language which is a standard non-braille file that defines what
is being represented.
> > Then with this intermediate file, another program such as would run in a
Browser could translate it to browser HTML ... or an app on a PC could
translate it so it could be displayed on a Braille display.
> > 
> > And I was planning on just having all the translations in one program,
or maybe a series of programs. But offer them all in a system that didn't
cost a lot of money. After all, we're talking about making knowledge
available to people ... not "sticking it to them".
> > 
> > I won't go into all the details about the back and forth translation or
work that has to be done. Anybody who's done programming understands that.
But I'll just cut to the chase and say that this is all about "defining the
standard formats that will be used, and the rules" ... whether it's computer
Braille, Nemeth, whatever the experts agree that blind students should learn
to use. That's something that needs to happen if it hasn't already. I get
the real idea here that some say Nemeth, some say LaTex, others say ABC...
how does anybody get anything done if someone doesn't evaluate the
requirements and say "XYZ is the standard everyone should write to"? And
maybe they have and I just haven't been flying in the right circles. Maybe I
need to get educated and go to some of these conferences that I'm sure go on
out there.
> > 
> > Enough said. I obviously wouldn't mind working on something like this ..
I have the math background, and I understand about writing software. It just
seemed like a neat idea to maybe try and help blind students who want to
explore math.
> > 
> > > From: mlewicki at bcsd.neric.org
> > > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > > Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 21:25:42 +0000
> > > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] superscript on an APEX question
> > > 
> > > Interesting, Louis. My students use the Apex for most of their work,
except hard copies for foreign language and math. I was told the update
handles Nemith, but to what degree I did not want to experiment with at this
point. As it is one student does enter her answers for math into the Apex,
and she says she uses some computer braille so that it prints out correctly
for her teacher. 
> > > 
> > > I am sure it will be eventually possible for my student to get these
docs without the middleman of a person who enters it into Math type,
Duxbury, then embosses, but we have a ways to go, and as I said, techie I am
n...a plodder, I am and I can be taught!
> > > 
> > > Maureen Murphy Lewicki
> > > Maureen Murphy Lewicki
> > > Teacher of Visually Impaired
> > > Bethlehem Central School
> > > 332 Kenwood AvenueDelmar, NY 12054 http://bethlehemschools.org
> > > (518) 439-7460
> > > Fax (518) 475-0092
> > > "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The 
> > > real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that 
> > > exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, 
> > > blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisancedd"Kenneth 
> > > Jernigan
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> > > Louis Bryant
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 5:18 PM
> > > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] superscript on an APEX question
> > > 
> > > Hi. This is interesting that you bring this up. I actually have a
program running on the Braille Sense that explains addition, subtraction,
multiplication, and division, long-division, step-by-step as well as
presents the steps in Nemeth Code. It also has other features, and will soon
be cross-platform.
> > > I'm planning to also have the program present the steps and equations
to a sighted user using proper notation. It will also soon have a guided
mode and a test mode which each part of the problem is presented to the user
and all the user has to do is answer questions. The application will take
care of the format and presentation to blind and sighted users itself.
> > > I've actually wrote this app in a programming language I made up that
takes care of translating anything sent to it into C++ code.
> > > The language is also portable across platforms so this same script can
just be re-translated later.
> > > I'd definitely be interested in working with someone on this, either
for other platforms, to talk about standards, or even print symbols used on
the computer for writing and solving equations. Help could also be used by
describing the types of problems you wish to see done, and your version
step-by-step on how to do them.
> > > If anyone wants to see what I've done, I'd be happy to send you a beta
program or even just do a podcast. Other platforms will be coming soon! I've
been working on this for about 7 months now.
> > > Best, Louis
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Mike Jolls <mrspock56 at hotmail.com>
> > > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics 
> > > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> > > Date: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 12:43 pm
> > > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] superscript on an APEX question
> > > 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I'm currently investigating software that would allow a blind person
to enter an equation, and have the computer solve it for them ... in case
they didn't know how to do it.
> > > > The goal is to output to a multi-line window so the braille display
can be used to peruse the solution line by line and see the exact solution
.. how it was arrived at.
> > > > The software would first calculate the intermediate answer, then
translate it to braille, and then send it the display.
> > > > I would also like to see the software translate it back to a
solution that the sighted teacher can handle.
> > > > This is not a trivial application .. it's certainly taking a lot of
work on my part.
> > > > It doesn't even use LaTex which I hear everyone talking about.
> > > > But the goal is to:
> > > > 1. have the teacher give the student the homework in a file in the
teachers format.
> > > > 2. The blind student gets it, pulls up the file, and the problem is
output in Braille to the display with a set of standard symbols (whatever
the standard is).
> > > > Functions could be output as ... "sin", "cos", "tan", "ln", "log"
"abs", etc ... and then you'd likely have to have special symbols for
integration, derivation, etc ...
> > > > 3. As I say, the software should present the problem to the student,
and allow him to try to solve it, or have the program solve the problem for
him if he or she just can't do it.
> > > > 4. And, then back-translate to Word or other format that the teacher
can just be given the answer file and pull it up and see the answer.
> > > > 
> > > > Anyway, that's whyI say there should be a standard. If there was,
then a lot of people could work on such software.
> > > > At this point, i have a program where you can submit a problem such
as => (3+2)*5-singg30(+1 ... and the program will calculate the answer. It
doesn't do step-by step yet.
> > > > 
> > > > So that's why I say what I say.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > CC: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > > > > From: sabra1023 at gmail.com
> > > > > Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 13:42:33 com0500
> > > > > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] superscript on an APEX question
> > > > > 
> > > > > There are very few blind people who know about math, and blind
people haven't been doing high-levelacademic pursuits with their sighted
counterparts for very long. Because of this, there simply isn't enough
research to know which standards would benefit the entire population. Maybe,
you could do some of this research and get back to us with the results.
> > > > > 
> > > > > > On Oct 1, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Mike Jolls <mrspock56 at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I find it interesting that (apparently .. if I'm reading the
replies correctly) that two different people use different methods to
represent the same information. Not that someone couldn't do that, but it
would seem logical to have one accepted and approved set of Braille
characters to represent a certain piece of information. Then, if everyone
saved to that syntax, you could have a universal standard program that could
then translate and print it out for the benefit of a sighted teacher who
didn't understand the Braille code.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I'm all about standards ... it just makes life easier when you
want to leverage information.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >> CC: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > > > > >> From: sabra1023 at gmail.com
> > > > > >> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 16:54:17 com0500
> > > > > >> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] superscript on an APEX question
> > > > > >> 
> > > > > >> I don't use superscripts at all. They are confusing for me to
read, and I show my work and math for my benefit as well as the teachers. I
use parentheses if there are problems with clarification.
> > > > > >> 
> > > > > >>> On Sep 26, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Wilson_KC <Wilson_KC at asdk12.org>
wrote:
> > > > > >>> 
> > > > > >>> Thanks for that info, Daniel. We'll give it a try. kc
> > > > > >>> 
> > > > > >>> ________________________________________
> > > > > >>> From: Blindmath [blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf 
> > > > > >>> of Daniel [danielgillen at rcn.com]
> > > > > >>> Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 12:07 PM
> > > > > >>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] superscript on an APEX question
> > > > > >>> 
> > > > > >>> Dear list,
> > > > > >>> 
> > > > > >>> I am Daniel Gillen, a college student majoring in physics 
> > > > > >>> who is a power user of the Apex. For the longest time, 
> > > > > >>> I've known that one needs to be in 8-dot Computer Braille 
> > > > > >>> to take advantage of the various plain-text and extended
Unicode characters.
> > > > > >>> Hence, the caret (or beginning of superscript material) is 
> > > > > >>> most efficiently written in 8-dot Computer Braille using 
> > > > > >>> dot 7
> > > > > >>> (backspace) together with dots 4-5. The way in 6-dot mode 
> > > > > >>> is to first press space with U (U for uppercase), and then
dots 4-5.
> > > > > >>> The option to switch to 8-dot mode is in Braille Options 
> > > > > >>> under the Options Menu.
> > > > > >>> (Just as a side note: I find it convenient to use the 
> > > > > >>> tilde character for the beginning of a square-root 
> > > > > >>> expression. With that, I would end all superscript 
> > > > > >>> material or material under the radical sign that has 
> > > > > >>> additional text on the base line with a double-quote 
> > > > > >>> mark.) I hope this was helpful. As I've been a member of 
> > > > > >>> the BlMath listserv for quite some time, I could help anyone
with such questions as this.
> > > > > >>> 
> > > > > >>> Thank you,
> > > > > >>> Daniel
> > > > > >>> 
> > > > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >>> From: Wilson_KC <Wilson_KC at asdk12.org
> > > > > >>> To: "blindmath at nfbnet.org" <blindmath at nfbnet.org Date 
> > > > > >>> sent: Thu,
> > > > > >>> 26 Sep 2013 17:57:17 +0000
> > > > > >>> Subject: [Blindmath] superscript on an APEX question
> > > > > >>> 
> > > > > >>> My student is in a Text Document on her APEX doing math 
> > > > > >>> problems in Nemeth. When she puts in dots 4,5 to produce 
> > > > > >>> an up arrow for a superscript, she gets a tilde instead. 
> > > > > >>> Do you know what she's doing wrong?
> > > > > >>> 
> > > > > >>> _______________________________________________
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