[Blindmath] Math accommodation questions
Mary Woodyard
marywoodyard at comcast.net
Mon Oct 7 14:10:21 UTC 2013
Hi Bhavya! Math exams are certainly challenging for both sighted and
blind/vision impaired students! I have a high school junior and have some
experience getting exam accommodations for him. He advocates for himself
quite a bit and also knows which accommodations seem to work with which
types of Math. Geometry is definitely the most challenging for him - way
more than graphing as a lot of graphing can be done nonvisually.
The questions I have for you are as follows: What country are you and the
blind student from? What media (large print, braille) do you use and what
level Math are you talking about? My son is in the United States and here
we have classroom testing which has one set of rules, state testing with
another set of rules and then national assessment testing (College Board and
ACTs) with another level of rules. Is your exam at the high school or
college level?
If you want to email me offlist, my email is marywoodyard at comcast.net. If
not - let us know what level of tests, which media and where you are and
that will help us give you some advice. Without knowing any of the above, I
will tell you that tactile graphics help my son in Geometry quite a bit.
Particularly when the triangles start inscribing in the circles.
The education challenge I see him face is that he does not need this
accommodation with other Math areas - just Geometry - so it's an education
process every year for his teachers as to why he needs it and why it is
appropriate for him to use it for Geometry if he is not using it for Algebra
or Statistics. Also, what type of curriculum are you looking for
accommodations for - an integrated Math curriculum (which is what he has) or
more of a block curriculum where you spend a semester just doing one type of
Math.
If you give me a little more information on the above issues - I can
probably give you some advice.
Mary Woodyard
-----Original Message-----
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Today's Topics:
1. Regarding Maths examinations (Bhavya shah)
2. Re: Regarding Maths examinations (raju singh)
3. "Spoken Mathematics on the Web" - Chromevox (Susan Jolly)
4. Re: "Spoken Mathematics on the Web" - Chromevox (Kevin Fjelsted)
5. Re: "Spoken Mathematics on the Web" - Chromevox (Michael Whapples)
6. Re: IOS7 and math support (Andrew Stacey)
7. Re: IOS7 and math support (Kevin Fjelsted)
8. Re: IOS7 and math support (Andrew Stacey)
9. LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support) (Susan Jolly)
10. Re: LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support)
(Godfrey, Jonathan)
11. Re: LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support) (Kevin Fjelsted)
12. Re: LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support)
(Godfrey, Jonathan)
13. Re: LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support) (Michael Whapples)
14. Re: IOS7 and math support (Michael Whapples)
15. Re: Regarding Maths examinations (Sean Tikkun)
16. Re: LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support) (Andrew Stacey)
17. Re: IOS7 and math support (Andrew Stacey)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 19:28:49 +0530
From: Bhavya shah <bhavya.shah125 at gmail.com>
To: Blindmath at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Blindmath] Regarding Maths examinations
Message-ID:
<CACHadJ1XGpaVP-0fugYHtki7TLk3kBOvvC23V8aa+Mr2waV+rQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
A warm welcome to all the readers. I am currently a schoold goer and
obviously have Maths exams. Geometry is the most difficult part of
Maths which I find very time consuming to understand. Please help me
regarding this matter and also I know that a blind student needs to
make some requests for the Maths exam to be easier for him. Please
advise me on this.
With warm regards
Bhavya.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 19:56:00 +0530
From: "raju singh" <bidhwin at gmail.com>
To: "'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'"
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Regarding Maths examinations
Message-ID: <52517311.2345440a.7356.ffffa309 at mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello boss, even I don't know how one blind can tackle those geometry
problem on computer, but for me, in computer, it is not possible. In
geometry I use my Braille drawing kids to draw the things on the paper or my
teacher draws for me and understand. As I am computer science student, I
even prepare my circuit board using Braille. But any ways, I believe there
is also the drawing kids by using you can draw and solve any geometry
problem On computer. If I was not wrong, I was talking about svg draw. But
unfortunately I couldn't understand any thing regarding svg draw, hopefully
you'll understand and also share your knowledge to me. For me, Braille kids
are playing very important role for me. And for graph purposes, you can use
math tracks. Fortunately I can use mathtracks and
-----Original Message-----
From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bhavya
shah
Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 7:29 PM
To: Blindmath at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Blindmath] Regarding Maths examinations
A warm welcome to all the readers. I am currently a schoold goer and
obviously have Maths exams. Geometry is the most difficult part of
Maths which I find very time consuming to understand. Please help me
regarding this matter and also I know that a blind student needs to
make some requests for the Maths exam to be easier for him. Please
advise me on this.
With warm regards
Bhavya.
_______________________________________________
Blindmath mailing list
Blindmath at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 10:30:04 -0600
From: "Susan Jolly" <easjolly at ix.netcom.com>
To: <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [Blindmath] "Spoken Mathematics on the Web" - Chromevox
Message-ID: <54B882AC06054ABAB15536C01AB89349 at SusanPC2009>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Thanks, Kevin, for pointing out this video. I watched (mostly listened) to
the whole thing although I stopped and started quite a few times as I found
it pretty boring.
If I'm understanding correctly, Chrome is an operating system developed by
Google and ChromeVox is their competitor for Apple's VoiceOver screenreader.
There is also a Chrome browser which can be installed on most other
operating systems and ChromeVox can then be used on these operating systems
as an extension to the Chrome browser.
The latest version of ChromeVox can speak math represented by either
presentation MathML or by alt tags associated with pictures of math. Since
it is not always possible to infer the semantics of presentation MathML, it
is not necessarily an optimal electronic representation of math intended to
be spoken. The ChromeVox developers have addressed this issue by providing
an API that lets MathML content developers annotate their MathML expressions
with semantic enhancements intended to make the corresponding math spoken by
ChromeVox more natural and also to make the expressions easier to navigate.
For example, a developer can choose to have the numerator of a fraction
spoken using a different pitch from its denominator.
(It wasn't possible for me to tell from the video how the API actually works
and I haven't been able to find any documentation.)
I was not impressed. In the first place, I don't think it is reasonable to
expect authors to provide non-standard annotation that is only recognized by
a particular browser. In the second place, none of the ideas for making
spoken math easier to understand seem to be new. Researchers have long
proposed various schemes that use prosody for this purpose. It is my
opinion that none of these have caught on because understanding spoken math
is intrinsically difficult. I realize that there are many people for whom
this is the only option and the fact that the user can apply some level of
customization to ChromeVox spoken math may turn out to be valuable.
Another purpose of spoken math is as a way of dictating math to a person or
app that converts the math to written form. Dr. Nemeth's MathSpeak was
designed for this purpose and researchers at ghBraille demonstrated a few
years back that persons listening to MathSpeak are less likely to
misunderstand what is being said than persons listening to other forms of
spoken math. Dr. Nemeth found that it typically took no more than 15
minutes for him to train a sighted person with no background in math to read
all levels of math to him using MathSpeak. Since MathSpeak is essentially a
spoken form of Nemeth braille math, Dr. Nemeth was able to braille what was
being read to him as it was being read.
Nemeth braille math is effectively a very efficient shorthand for entering a
large portion of presentation MathML and I think that is one of its many
advantages over other alternatives for writing and reading math in braille.
Sincerely,
SusanJ
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 11:53:00 -0500
From: Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] "Spoken Mathematics on the Web" - Chromevox
Message-ID: <D7E5ED8B-6986-49CF-B449-B713E0B6BD70 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
There was mention in the latest release notes for ChromeVox that Braille
support is being developed.
At this point other than the beginnings discussed for ChromeVox I am not
aware of any web browser for windows or Mac that will present MathML in
either Braille, or speech.
THe design science MathPlayer supposedly does this, for some versions of
IE under Windows however my attempts to get this working have never
succeeded.
I definitely agree that Braille is preferred, however this then requires a
Braille display which is out of reach from a cost perspective for many.
My recommendation is that for those who are interested to join the ChromeVox
access group that Google has set up and present views on what direction
should be taken. Both of the developers mentioned in the video participate
on this list.
The group name is axs-chrome-discuss at googlegroups.com. If we don't
participate and provide feedback we are much less likely to have any
influence.
I like the IOS approach because I have a Braille display and so far from
what I have seen the nemeth translation from a MathML web page is way far
ahead of anything else that is in a consumer product. The speech exploration
does fine for me and I don't personally get hung up in inflections or
anything complex for speech because I know I can resort to Braille.
-Kevin
On Oct 6, 2013, at 11:30 AM, Susan Jolly <easjolly at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Kevin, for pointing out this video. I watched (mostly listened)
to the whole thing although I stopped and started quite a few times as I
found it pretty boring.
>
> If I'm understanding correctly, Chrome is an operating system developed by
Google and ChromeVox is their competitor for Apple's VoiceOver screenreader.
There is also a Chrome browser which can be installed on most other
operating systems and ChromeVox can then be used on these operating systems
as an extension to the Chrome browser.
>
> The latest version of ChromeVox can speak math represented by either
presentation MathML or by alt tags associated with pictures of math. Since
it is not always possible to infer the semantics of presentation MathML, it
is not necessarily an optimal electronic representation of math intended to
be spoken. The ChromeVox developers have addressed this issue by providing
an API that lets MathML content developers annotate their MathML expressions
with semantic enhancements intended to make the corresponding math spoken by
ChromeVox more natural and also to make the expressions easier to navigate.
For example, a developer can choose to have the numerator of a fraction
spoken using a different pitch from its denominator.
>
> (It wasn't possible for me to tell from the video how the API actually
works and I haven't been able to find any documentation.)
>
> I was not impressed. In the first place, I don't think it is reasonable
to expect authors to provide non-standard annotation that is only recognized
by a particular browser. In the second place, none of the ideas for making
spoken math easier to understand seem to be new. Researchers have long
proposed various schemes that use prosody for this purpose. It is my
opinion that none of these have caught on because understanding spoken math
is intrinsically difficult. I realize that there are many people for whom
this is the only option and the fact that the user can apply some level of
customization to ChromeVox spoken math may turn out to be valuable.
>
> Another purpose of spoken math is as a way of dictating math to a person
or app that converts the math to written form. Dr. Nemeth's MathSpeak was
designed for this purpose and researchers at ghBraille demonstrated a few
years back that persons listening to MathSpeak are less likely to
misunderstand what is being said than persons listening to other forms of
spoken math. Dr. Nemeth found that it typically took no more than 15
minutes for him to train a sighted person with no background in math to read
all levels of math to him using MathSpeak. Since MathSpeak is essentially a
spoken form of Nemeth braille math, Dr. Nemeth was able to braille what was
being read to him as it was being read.
>
> Nemeth braille math is effectively a very efficient shorthand for entering
a large portion of presentation MathML and I think that is one of its many
advantages over other alternatives for writing and reading math in braille.
>
> Sincerely,
> SusanJ
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 18:42:36 +0100
From: Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com>
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] "Spoken Mathematics on the Web" - Chromevox
Message-ID: <5251A10C.6050606 at aim.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Thanks for this summary Susan, I possibly was going to look at it but in
general I am not very taken by Google stuff (so very little interest in
adopting Google chrome for my browser) and I think I had heard someone
already say that while chromevox does read some MathML they noticed a
few gaps. Also I am far from taken by the idea of needing to use a
different assistive technology when I want to browse the web, my main
screen reader is what I use to access the computer, and there is
something said for keeping it consistant for all applications (I would
prefer to concentrate on what I am doing rather than concentrate on how
to access the information).
Just a few observations and questions of what you say.
Using prosody to assist with understanding equations: I believe it can
be useful, but I agree that to rely on the prosody alone would be a
mistake. I think well placed pauses can help with identifying blocks of
the equation. Also it appears that Apple in their IOS7 stuff do use
prosody, VoiceOver raises the pitch when speaking a superscript and
lowers the pitch for subscript, although it does still speak where these
begin and end. Possibly more useful than prosody though is the ability
to explore an equation, some can just be too long to process in one go.
The chromevox speech API: I possibly should check this, but I have a
suspicion that this too will not turn out to be new. Some of this stuff
I hear about chromevox sounds very familiar when thinking back to the
firevox extension (http://firevox.clcworld.net) for the firefox browser,
which also did support some MathML speaking and a speech API (I think it
was termed as speech CSS or something like that). As the author of the
firevox extension I believe is involved in Google accessibility (I have
seen him pop up in a few Google accessibility related videos) I would
not be surprised if much of the implementation was based upon that. As I
think the speech API support in firevox goes back quite a few years
(well over 6, not sure if as far back as 10), one might say what will
change things now which will make people use this API in webpages?
Nemeth MathSpeak: Thanks for that information, it certainly makes things
clearer for me how MathSpeak fits in with everything else. Up to now
MathSpeak had been seen as yet another speech standard by me, but it
does seem like Dr Nemeth did put a lot of effort into making it work
well with other things (eg. his Braille code).
Michael Whapples
On 06/10/2013 17:30, Susan Jolly wrote:
> Thanks, Kevin, for pointing out this video. I watched (mostly
> listened) to the whole thing although I stopped and started quite a
> few times as I found it pretty boring.
>
> If I'm understanding correctly, Chrome is an operating system
> developed by Google and ChromeVox is their competitor for Apple's
> VoiceOver screenreader. There is also a Chrome browser which can be
> installed on most other operating systems and ChromeVox can then be
> used on these operating systems as an extension to the Chrome browser.
>
> The latest version of ChromeVox can speak math represented by either
> presentation MathML or by alt tags associated with pictures of math.
> Since it is not always possible to infer the semantics of presentation
> MathML, it is not necessarily an optimal electronic representation of
> math intended to be spoken. The ChromeVox developers have addressed
> this issue by providing an API that lets MathML content developers
> annotate their MathML expressions with semantic enhancements intended
> to make the corresponding math spoken by ChromeVox more natural and
> also to make the expressions easier to navigate. For example, a
> developer can choose to have the numerator of a fraction spoken using
> a different pitch from its denominator.
>
> (It wasn't possible for me to tell from the video how the API actually
> works and I haven't been able to find any documentation.)
>
> I was not impressed. In the first place, I don't think it is
> reasonable to expect authors to provide non-standard annotation that
> is only recognized by a particular browser. In the second place, none
> of the ideas for making spoken math easier to understand seem to be
> new. Researchers have long proposed various schemes that use prosody
> for this purpose. It is my opinion that none of these have caught on
> because understanding spoken math is intrinsically difficult. I
> realize that there are many people for whom this is the only option
> and the fact that the user can apply some level of customization to
> ChromeVox spoken math may turn out to be valuable.
>
> Another purpose of spoken math is as a way of dictating math to a
> person or app that converts the math to written form. Dr. Nemeth's
> MathSpeak was designed for this purpose and researchers at ghBraille
> demonstrated a few years back that persons listening to MathSpeak are
> less likely to misunderstand what is being said than persons listening
> to other forms of spoken math. Dr. Nemeth found that it typically
> took no more than 15 minutes for him to train a sighted person with no
> background in math to read all levels of math to him using MathSpeak.
> Since MathSpeak is essentially a spoken form of Nemeth braille math,
> Dr. Nemeth was able to braille what was being read to him as it was
> being read.
>
> Nemeth braille math is effectively a very efficient shorthand for
> entering a large portion of presentation MathML and I think that is
> one of its many advantages over other alternatives for writing and
> reading math in braille.
>
> Sincerely,
> SusanJ
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Blindmath:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 22:05:48 +0200
From: Andrew Stacey <andrew.stacey at math.ntnu.no>
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] IOS7 and math support
Message-ID: <20131006200548.GA1126 at vinyamar.lan>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I have some ePub3s with MathML in them if anyone would like to use them to
try
out iBooks' accessibility.
This one is quite long, and the maths is graduate-level:
http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/diffloop.epub
This one is about quaternions (aimed at graphical programmers):
http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/Quaternion.epub
This one is about shaders in OpenGL programming (but still has some maths in
it):
http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/Shaders.epub
I create these from LaTeX source using a class that I've developed for
converting LaTeX documents into XHTML or ePub3 so I can make webpages, PDFs,
and ePub3s from the same source code. The fact that iBooks has (some)
support
for MathML was one of the reasons why I developed this.
Andrew Stacey
On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 08:08:40PM +0100, Michael Whapples wrote:
> If you have an ePub with MathML, then I believe you can just load
> that into IBooks. Load it into IBooks either by using iTunes data
> sharing or may be simpler attach it to an email and send it to
> yourself, and open the attachment using the IOS device and use the
> button for "Open in IBooks".
>
> Unfortunately I do not have an ePub with MathML content to try this,
> but I do hope that the math support extends to IBooks and that
> authors do use MathML when inserting math into ePub files.
>
> Michael Whapples
> On 05/10/2013 19:47, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
> >Are there any iBook EPub applications that we can see as samples for
Nemeth presentation on IOS?
> >
> >-Kevin
> >
> >On Oct 5, 2013, at 1:13 PM, Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Neil, The math on that page did not display correctly on my iPad running
iOS 7.0.2.
> >>
> >>I believe iOS7 does a good job with presentation MathML in Safari and
iBooks. Check out this very simple test page from W3C:
> >>http://www.w3.org/Math/XSL/pmathml2.xml
> >>
> >>There are a few features of this new support that should be noted:
> >>
> >>It is a multimodal experience that supports Nemeth, spoken math, and
support for low vision users. This support is tightly integrated so a user
can read with their fingers, eyes and ears at the same time. I think there
are two very powerful consequences:
> >>1 - it is an easy way to learn Nemeth code.
> >>2 - it is a nice way for a sighted general ed math teacher to work with
students with visual impairments, i.e. the general ed math teacher does not
have to know the Nemeth code.
> >>
> >>To see this behavior in action:
> >>Turn on Voiceover on your iOS device.
> >>Connect a braille display.
> >>Open the url above in Safari.
> >>Move the VO cursor to an equation on that page.
> >>Observe that VO reads the equation using speech and displays it on the
braille display.
> >>Play with the rotor and note that you can read the equation by symbol,
small expresions, large expressions, etc.
> >>Activate the equation with a double tap, 3-6-chord, etc and view the
equation in full screen mode.
> >>Move through the equation using the VO cursor and drill down on an
expression or term to view it alone in full screen mode.
> >>
> >>Best,
> >>Ed
> >>Sent from my iPad
> >>
> >>On Oct 5, 2013, at 11:47 AM, "Neil Soiffer"
<NeilS at dessci.com<mailto:NeilS at dessci.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>If you want some simple math to try out, take a look at the site
> >>onemathematicalcat.org<http://onemathematicalcat.org>. It has alg 1,
alg 2, and geometry. Susan said she
> >>had problems there but she had IOS 7 problems. Hopefully others will
have
> >>more success. Here's a sample page with some simple fractions and
powers:
>
>>http://www.onemathematicalcat.org/algebra_book/online_problems/el_recip.ht
m
> >>
> >>Neil Soiffer
> >>Senior Scientist
> >>Design Science, Inc.
> >>www.dessci.com<http://www.dessci.com>
> >>~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor ~
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Blindmath mailing list
> >>Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/ed.summers%40sas.co
m
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Blindmath mailing list
> >>Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.c
om
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blindmath mailing list
> >Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/andrew.stacey%40math.
ntnu.no
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 15:30:39 -0500
From: Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
To: andrew.stacey at math.ntnu.no, Blind Math list for those interested
in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] IOS7 and math support
Message-ID: <21CFF38E-4642-4401-BC8A-04D523FDFA18 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Andrew;
Are these Latex to ePub conversion classes Latex packages?
Are they available publicly for other's to use?
-Kevin
On Oct 6, 2013, at 3:05 PM, Andrew Stacey <andrew.stacey at math.ntnu.no>
wrote:
> I have some ePub3s with MathML in them if anyone would like to use them to
try
> out iBooks' accessibility.
>
> This one is quite long, and the maths is graduate-level:
>
> http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/diffloop.epub
>
> This one is about quaternions (aimed at graphical programmers):
>
> http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/Quaternion.epub
>
> This one is about shaders in OpenGL programming (but still has some maths
in
> it):
>
> http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/Shaders.epub
>
> I create these from LaTeX source using a class that I've developed for
> converting LaTeX documents into XHTML or ePub3 so I can make webpages,
PDFs,
> and ePub3s from the same source code. The fact that iBooks has (some)
support
> for MathML was one of the reasons why I developed this.
>
> Andrew Stacey
>
> On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 08:08:40PM +0100, Michael Whapples wrote:
>> If you have an ePub with MathML, then I believe you can just load
>> that into IBooks. Load it into IBooks either by using iTunes data
>> sharing or may be simpler attach it to an email and send it to
>> yourself, and open the attachment using the IOS device and use the
>> button for "Open in IBooks".
>>
>> Unfortunately I do not have an ePub with MathML content to try this,
>> but I do hope that the math support extends to IBooks and that
>> authors do use MathML when inserting math into ePub files.
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>> On 05/10/2013 19:47, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>> Are there any iBook EPub applications that we can see as samples for
Nemeth presentation on IOS?
>>>
>>> -Kevin
>>>
>>> On Oct 5, 2013, at 1:13 PM, Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Neil, The math on that page did not display correctly on my iPad
running iOS 7.0.2.
>>>>
>>>> I believe iOS7 does a good job with presentation MathML in Safari and
iBooks. Check out this very simple test page from W3C:
>>>> http://www.w3.org/Math/XSL/pmathml2.xml
>>>>
>>>> There are a few features of this new support that should be noted:
>>>>
>>>> It is a multimodal experience that supports Nemeth, spoken math, and
support for low vision users. This support is tightly integrated so a user
can read with their fingers, eyes and ears at the same time. I think there
are two very powerful consequences:
>>>> 1 - it is an easy way to learn Nemeth code.
>>>> 2 - it is a nice way for a sighted general ed math teacher to work with
students with visual impairments, i.e. the general ed math teacher does not
have to know the Nemeth code.
>>>>
>>>> To see this behavior in action:
>>>> Turn on Voiceover on your iOS device.
>>>> Connect a braille display.
>>>> Open the url above in Safari.
>>>> Move the VO cursor to an equation on that page.
>>>> Observe that VO reads the equation using speech and displays it on the
braille display.
>>>> Play with the rotor and note that you can read the equation by symbol,
small expresions, large expressions, etc.
>>>> Activate the equation with a double tap, 3-6-chord, etc and view the
equation in full screen mode.
>>>> Move through the equation using the VO cursor and drill down on an
expression or term to view it alone in full screen mode.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Ed
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 5, 2013, at 11:47 AM, "Neil Soiffer"
<NeilS at dessci.com<mailto:NeilS at dessci.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you want some simple math to try out, take a look at the site
>>>> onemathematicalcat.org<http://onemathematicalcat.org>. It has alg 1,
alg 2, and geometry. Susan said she
>>>> had problems there but she had IOS 7 problems. Hopefully others will
have
>>>> more success. Here's a sample page with some simple fractions and
powers:
>>>>
http://www.onemathematicalcat.org/algebra_book/online_problems/el_recip.htm
>>>>
>>>> Neil Soiffer
>>>> Senior Scientist
>>>> Design Science, Inc.
>>>> www.dessci.com<http://www.dessci.com>
>>>> ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor
~
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>>>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/ed.summers%40sas.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>>>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/andrew.stacey%40math.
ntnu.no
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 22:40:33 +0200
From: Andrew Stacey <andrew.stacey at math.ntnu.no>
To: Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
Cc: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] IOS7 and math support
Message-ID: <20131006204033.GB1126 at vinyamar.lan>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
They are available publicly but are very definitely in "alpha" stage. They
work for me, and a few others have been using them, but there are still lots
of things that need ironing out.
As it is "alpha", it is not yet on CTAN. I maintain it as a git repository
on
github:
https://github.com/loopspace/latex-to-internet
(Is github accessible? If not, I could make it available in other ways.)
When producing MathML, it currently uses the itex2mml program for actually
generating the MathML - at some point I intend removing this dependency.
Andrew
On Sun, Oct 06, 2013 at 03:30:39PM -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
> Andrew;
> Are these Latex to ePub conversion classes Latex packages?
> Are they available publicly for other's to use?
> -Kevin
>
> On Oct 6, 2013, at 3:05 PM, Andrew Stacey <andrew.stacey at math.ntnu.no>
wrote:
>
> > I have some ePub3s with MathML in them if anyone would like to use them
to try
> > out iBooks' accessibility.
> >
> > This one is quite long, and the maths is graduate-level:
> >
> > http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/diffloop.epub
> >
> > This one is about quaternions (aimed at graphical programmers):
> >
> > http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/Quaternion.epub
> >
> > This one is about shaders in OpenGL programming (but still has some
maths in
> > it):
> >
> > http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/Shaders.epub
> >
> > I create these from LaTeX source using a class that I've developed for
> > converting LaTeX documents into XHTML or ePub3 so I can make webpages,
PDFs,
> > and ePub3s from the same source code. The fact that iBooks has (some)
support
> > for MathML was one of the reasons why I developed this.
> >
> > Andrew Stacey
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 08:08:40PM +0100, Michael Whapples wrote:
> >> If you have an ePub with MathML, then I believe you can just load
> >> that into IBooks. Load it into IBooks either by using iTunes data
> >> sharing or may be simpler attach it to an email and send it to
> >> yourself, and open the attachment using the IOS device and use the
> >> button for "Open in IBooks".
> >>
> >> Unfortunately I do not have an ePub with MathML content to try this,
> >> but I do hope that the math support extends to IBooks and that
> >> authors do use MathML when inserting math into ePub files.
> >>
> >> Michael Whapples
> >> On 05/10/2013 19:47, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
> >>> Are there any iBook EPub applications that we can see as samples for
Nemeth presentation on IOS?
> >>>
> >>> -Kevin
> >>>
> >>> On Oct 5, 2013, at 1:13 PM, Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Neil, The math on that page did not display correctly on my iPad
running iOS 7.0.2.
> >>>>
> >>>> I believe iOS7 does a good job with presentation MathML in Safari and
iBooks. Check out this very simple test page from W3C:
> >>>> http://www.w3.org/Math/XSL/pmathml2.xml
> >>>>
> >>>> There are a few features of this new support that should be noted:
> >>>>
> >>>> It is a multimodal experience that supports Nemeth, spoken math, and
support for low vision users. This support is tightly integrated so a user
can read with their fingers, eyes and ears at the same time. I think there
are two very powerful consequences:
> >>>> 1 - it is an easy way to learn Nemeth code.
> >>>> 2 - it is a nice way for a sighted general ed math teacher to work
with students with visual impairments, i.e. the general ed math teacher does
not have to know the Nemeth code.
> >>>>
> >>>> To see this behavior in action:
> >>>> Turn on Voiceover on your iOS device.
> >>>> Connect a braille display.
> >>>> Open the url above in Safari.
> >>>> Move the VO cursor to an equation on that page.
> >>>> Observe that VO reads the equation using speech and displays it on
the braille display.
> >>>> Play with the rotor and note that you can read the equation by
symbol, small expresions, large expressions, etc.
> >>>> Activate the equation with a double tap, 3-6-chord, etc and view the
equation in full screen mode.
> >>>> Move through the equation using the VO cursor and drill down on an
expression or term to view it alone in full screen mode.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>> Ed
> >>>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>>
> >>>> On Oct 5, 2013, at 11:47 AM, "Neil Soiffer"
<NeilS at dessci.com<mailto:NeilS at dessci.com>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> If you want some simple math to try out, take a look at the site
> >>>> onemathematicalcat.org<http://onemathematicalcat.org>. It has alg 1,
alg 2, and geometry. Susan said she
> >>>> had problems there but she had IOS 7 problems. Hopefully others will
have
> >>>> more success. Here's a sample page with some simple fractions and
powers:
> >>>>
http://www.onemathematicalcat.org/algebra_book/online_problems/el_recip.htm
> >>>>
> >>>> Neil Soiffer
> >>>> Senior Scientist
> >>>> Design Science, Inc.
> >>>> www.dessci.com<http://www.dessci.com>
> >>>> ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation
Editor ~
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Blindmath mailing list
> >>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
> >>>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/ed.summers%40sas.com
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Blindmath mailing list
> >>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
> >>>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Blindmath mailing list
> >>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
> >>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blindmath mailing list
> >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
> >>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/andrew.stacey%40math.
ntnu.no
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blindmath mailing list
> > Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
> >
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 15:04:50 -0600
From: "Susan Jolly" <easjolly at ix.netcom.com>
To: <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [Blindmath] LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support)
Message-ID: <C7F1D514EC1645B297BF303567FECE6D at SusanPC2009>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
This is sort of off-topic but I wanted to remind everyone that converting
certain subsets of LaTeX, such as itex, to MathML is MUCH easier than
converting any arbitrary valid LaTeX document to MathML. (The same comment
applies if the target is braille math rather than MathML.) One major reason
is that LaTeX includes a macro language. To my knowledge tex4ht is the only
application which is designed to convert general LaTeX documents and even it
isn't perfect. I've never tried to use tex4ht myself but I understand using
it requires some investment of time to acquire the necessary expertise.
SusanJ
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:22:50 +0000
From: "Godfrey, Jonathan" <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support)
Message-ID:
<D59DA89C3CD73C44A799E7087F8E6A9E2E7794 at tur-exch-node1.massey.ac.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Morning all,
Responding to Susan's comments about tex4ht:
Thanks to pointers from Susan J and Michael W, I found it fairly simple to
add creation of html documents from raw latex to my workflow.
I now routinely process a lot of documents into both pdf and html from the
same source files. Usually, the html files are for my own personal use but I
have created a number of documents that are now available in both pdf and
html for use by my sighted students.
To get the best outcomes, I have two header files which have different
preambles. One for the pdf, one for the html. The body of these header files
just imports the other files for the content which is of course the same for
all formats.
I've been quite satisfied with the default settings of tex4ht. I'd like to
work out how to add alt tags to images one day, but at present the use of
informative captions for figures is sufficient.
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Susan
Jolly
Sent: Monday, 7 October 2013 10:05 a.m.
To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Blindmath] LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support)
This is sort of off-topic but I wanted to remind everyone that converting
certain subsets of LaTeX, such as itex, to MathML is MUCH easier than
converting any arbitrary valid LaTeX document to MathML. (The same comment
applies if the target is braille math rather than MathML.) One major reason
is that LaTeX includes a macro language. To my knowledge tex4ht is the only
application which is designed to convert general LaTeX documents and even it
isn't perfect. I've never tried to use tex4ht myself but I understand using
it requires some investment of time to acquire the necessary expertise.
SusanJ
_______________________________________________
Blindmath mailing list
Blindmath at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.
ac.nz
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 16:28:32 -0500
From: Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support)
Message-ID: <482F3346-64F3-4DFB-B2E0-5D97C29C8675 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
In my CSCI classes I am experiencing a mixture of sources composed of Latex
and MathType via word documents that I must read.
Jonathan, would you be willing to share your header files for converting
Latex?
Has anyone found a solution for taking word files that have MathType
equations in them and converting the file to HTML with the equations being
converted to MathML?
-Kevin
On Oct 6, 2013, at 4:22 PM, "Godfrey, Jonathan" <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
wrote:
> Morning all,
>
> Responding to Susan's comments about tex4ht:
>
> Thanks to pointers from Susan J and Michael W, I found it fairly simple to
add creation of html documents from raw latex to my workflow.
>
> I now routinely process a lot of documents into both pdf and html from the
same source files. Usually, the html files are for my own personal use but I
have created a number of documents that are now available in both pdf and
html for use by my sighted students.
>
> To get the best outcomes, I have two header files which have different
preambles. One for the pdf, one for the html. The body of these header files
just imports the other files for the content which is of course the same for
all formats.
>
> I've been quite satisfied with the default settings of tex4ht. I'd like to
work out how to add alt tags to images one day, but at present the use of
informative captions for figures is sufficient.
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Susan
Jolly
> Sent: Monday, 7 October 2013 10:05 a.m.
> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [Blindmath] LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support)
>
> This is sort of off-topic but I wanted to remind everyone that converting
certain subsets of LaTeX, such as itex, to MathML is MUCH easier than
converting any arbitrary valid LaTeX document to MathML. (The same comment
applies if the target is braille math rather than MathML.) One major reason
is that LaTeX includes a macro language. To my knowledge tex4ht is the only
application which is designed to convert general LaTeX documents and even it
isn't perfect. I've never tried to use tex4ht myself but I understand using
it requires some investment of time to acquire the necessary expertise.
>
> SusanJ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.
ac.nz
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:44:53 +0000
From: "Godfrey, Jonathan" <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support)
Message-ID:
<D59DA89C3CD73C44A799E7087F8E6A9E2E784B at tur-exch-node1.massey.ac.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
OK, here it is for anyone that wants it. The content below is in a batch
file that is in the same folder as my document. I alter the MySourceFile to
be the name of the document file of course. Please note there are a lot of
files that aren't needed in the long run so they get cleaned up at the end.
I'll put some explanations at the end.
<starts>
latex MySourceFile
bibtex MySourceFile
latex MySourceFile
latex MySourceFile
dvips MySourceFile
ps2pdf MySourceFile.ps
htlatex MySourceFile.tex "html,1"
echo body{font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;} >> MySourceFile.css
del *.4ct
del *.4tc
del *.tmp
del *.lg
del *.idx
del *.idv
del *.xref
del *.dvi
del *.ps
del *.aux
del *.out
del *.toc
<ends>
The echo line adds an extra line to the css file so that he font changes.
This was the only problem I found with the default tex4ht output. A css file
can have as many of the same command as you like, but only the last one gets
used.
Yes, I know the process above has some overkill in it, but it works for all
situations I need it for.
This file generates a single html document for the entire document. There is
a value of 1 in the command to generate he html that can be changed to suit
your needs. My warning is though that there's then a lot of html files
floating around in your working folder. When I do this I also move all html
and css files off to a new folder.
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
Fjelsted
Sent: Monday, 7 October 2013 10:29 a.m.
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support)
In my CSCI classes I am experiencing a mixture of sources composed of Latex
and MathType via word documents that I must read.
Jonathan, would you be willing to share your header files for converting
Latex?
Has anyone found a solution for taking word files that have MathType
equations in them and converting the file to HTML with the equations being
converted to MathML?
-Kevin
On Oct 6, 2013, at 4:22 PM, "Godfrey, Jonathan" <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
wrote:
> Morning all,
>
> Responding to Susan's comments about tex4ht:
>
> Thanks to pointers from Susan J and Michael W, I found it fairly simple to
add creation of html documents from raw latex to my workflow.
>
> I now routinely process a lot of documents into both pdf and html from the
same source files. Usually, the html files are for my own personal use but I
have created a number of documents that are now available in both pdf and
html for use by my sighted students.
>
> To get the best outcomes, I have two header files which have different
preambles. One for the pdf, one for the html. The body of these header files
just imports the other files for the content which is of course the same for
all formats.
>
> I've been quite satisfied with the default settings of tex4ht. I'd like to
work out how to add alt tags to images one day, but at present the use of
informative captions for figures is sufficient.
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Susan
Jolly
> Sent: Monday, 7 October 2013 10:05 a.m.
> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [Blindmath] LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support)
>
> This is sort of off-topic but I wanted to remind everyone that converting
certain subsets of LaTeX, such as itex, to MathML is MUCH easier than
converting any arbitrary valid LaTeX document to MathML. (The same comment
applies if the target is braille math rather than MathML.) One major reason
is that LaTeX includes a macro language. To my knowledge tex4ht is the only
application which is designed to convert general LaTeX documents and even it
isn't perfect. I've never tried to use tex4ht myself but I understand using
it requires some investment of time to acquire the necessary expertise.
>
> SusanJ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.
ac.nz
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
_______________________________________________
Blindmath mailing list
Blindmath at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.
ac.nz
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 23:06:36 +0100
From: Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com>
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support)
Message-ID: <5251DEEC.4040205 at aim.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Use the "Publish to MathPage" option in the MathType menu. You will want
to set the math output as MathML and can have the MathML optimised for
MathPlayer or other browsers.
Michael Whapples
On 06/10/2013 22:28, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
> In my CSCI classes I am experiencing a mixture of sources composed of
Latex and MathType via word documents that I must read.
>
> Jonathan, would you be willing to share your header files for converting
Latex?
> Has anyone found a solution for taking word files that have MathType
equations in them and converting the file to HTML with the equations being
converted to MathML?
> -Kevin
>
> On Oct 6, 2013, at 4:22 PM, "Godfrey, Jonathan" <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
wrote:
>
>> Morning all,
>>
>> Responding to Susan's comments about tex4ht:
>>
>> Thanks to pointers from Susan J and Michael W, I found it fairly simple
to add creation of html documents from raw latex to my workflow.
>>
>> I now routinely process a lot of documents into both pdf and html from
the same source files. Usually, the html files are for my own personal use
but I have created a number of documents that are now available in both pdf
and html for use by my sighted students.
>>
>> To get the best outcomes, I have two header files which have different
preambles. One for the pdf, one for the html. The body of these header files
just imports the other files for the content which is of course the same for
all formats.
>>
>> I've been quite satisfied with the default settings of tex4ht. I'd like
to work out how to add alt tags to images one day, but at present the use of
informative captions for figures is sufficient.
>>
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Susan
Jolly
>> Sent: Monday, 7 October 2013 10:05 a.m.
>> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [Blindmath] LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support)
>>
>> This is sort of off-topic but I wanted to remind everyone that converting
certain subsets of LaTeX, such as itex, to MathML is MUCH easier than
converting any arbitrary valid LaTeX document to MathML. (The same comment
applies if the target is braille math rather than MathML.) One major reason
is that LaTeX includes a macro language. To my knowledge tex4ht is the only
application which is designed to convert general LaTeX documents and even it
isn't perfect. I've never tried to use tex4ht myself but I understand using
it requires some investment of time to acquire the necessary expertise.
>>
>> SusanJ
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.
ac.nz
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 23:32:19 +0100
From: Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com>
To: andrew.stacey at math.ntnu.no, Blind Math list for those interested
in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] IOS7 and math support
Message-ID: <5251E4F3.2080107 at aim.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I have only looked at the second ePub, wanting something shorter.
Unfortunately that does not seem to yield math accessibility like I was
able to experience in safari (IE. no Nemeth, no exploring of equations,
etc, about all VoiceOver was finding was a few characters).
That second one was very much matrices so that is why I specified it was
only the second one I tried. However my feeling is that may be there
will not be the same accessibility as the content control for showing
the book page in IBooks does not have the same sort of navigation with
VoiceOver as one has in safari.
I have sent an email to Apple accessibility asking whether the maths
accessibility does extend to other apps such as IBooks, I await their reply.
It will be a shame if IBooks really does not have the same math
accessibility as I have found in safari, iBooks might have been a
platform which authors/publishers might have been willing to use to make
books accessible.
Michael Whapples
On 06/10/2013 21:05, Andrew Stacey wrote:
> I have some ePub3s with MathML in them if anyone would like to use them to
try
> out iBooks' accessibility.
>
> This one is quite long, and the maths is graduate-level:
>
> http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/diffloop.epub
>
> This one is about quaternions (aimed at graphical programmers):
>
> http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/Quaternion.epub
>
> This one is about shaders in OpenGL programming (but still has some maths
in
> it):
>
> http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/Shaders.epub
>
> I create these from LaTeX source using a class that I've developed for
> converting LaTeX documents into XHTML or ePub3 so I can make webpages,
PDFs,
> and ePub3s from the same source code. The fact that iBooks has (some)
support
> for MathML was one of the reasons why I developed this.
>
> Andrew Stacey
>
> On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 08:08:40PM +0100, Michael Whapples wrote:
>> If you have an ePub with MathML, then I believe you can just load
>> that into IBooks. Load it into IBooks either by using iTunes data
>> sharing or may be simpler attach it to an email and send it to
>> yourself, and open the attachment using the IOS device and use the
>> button for "Open in IBooks".
>>
>> Unfortunately I do not have an ePub with MathML content to try this,
>> but I do hope that the math support extends to IBooks and that
>> authors do use MathML when inserting math into ePub files.
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>> On 05/10/2013 19:47, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>> Are there any iBook EPub applications that we can see as samples for
Nemeth presentation on IOS?
>>>
>>> -Kevin
>>>
>>> On Oct 5, 2013, at 1:13 PM, Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Neil, The math on that page did not display correctly on my iPad
running iOS 7.0.2.
>>>>
>>>> I believe iOS7 does a good job with presentation MathML in Safari and
iBooks. Check out this very simple test page from W3C:
>>>> http://www.w3.org/Math/XSL/pmathml2.xml
>>>>
>>>> There are a few features of this new support that should be noted:
>>>>
>>>> It is a multimodal experience that supports Nemeth, spoken math, and
support for low vision users. This support is tightly integrated so a user
can read with their fingers, eyes and ears at the same time. I think there
are two very powerful consequences:
>>>> 1 - it is an easy way to learn Nemeth code.
>>>> 2 - it is a nice way for a sighted general ed math teacher to work with
students with visual impairments, i.e. the general ed math teacher does not
have to know the Nemeth code.
>>>>
>>>> To see this behavior in action:
>>>> Turn on Voiceover on your iOS device.
>>>> Connect a braille display.
>>>> Open the url above in Safari.
>>>> Move the VO cursor to an equation on that page.
>>>> Observe that VO reads the equation using speech and displays it on the
braille display.
>>>> Play with the rotor and note that you can read the equation by symbol,
small expresions, large expressions, etc.
>>>> Activate the equation with a double tap, 3-6-chord, etc and view the
equation in full screen mode.
>>>> Move through the equation using the VO cursor and drill down on an
expression or term to view it alone in full screen mode.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Ed
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 5, 2013, at 11:47 AM, "Neil Soiffer"
<NeilS at dessci.com<mailto:NeilS at dessci.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you want some simple math to try out, take a look at the site
>>>> onemathematicalcat.org<http://onemathematicalcat.org>. It has alg 1,
alg 2, and geometry. Susan said she
>>>> had problems there but she had IOS 7 problems. Hopefully others will
have
>>>> more success. Here's a sample page with some simple fractions and
powers:
>>>>
http://www.onemathematicalcat.org/algebra_book/online_problems/el_recip.htm
>>>>
>>>> Neil Soiffer
>>>> Senior Scientist
>>>> Design Science, Inc.
>>>> www.dessci.com<http://www.dessci.com>
>>>> ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor
~
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>>>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/ed.summers%40sas.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>>>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blindmath mailing list
>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/andrew.stacey%40math.
ntnu.no
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 17:40:44 -0500
From: Sean Tikkun <jaquis at mac.com>
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Regarding Maths examinations
Message-ID: <360D07BB-52BE-45DC-BF27-D33123E6E481 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Some of the more challenging elements of Geometry involve relative position
and the concept of angle. An angle defines a distance, but that distance is
not tactual if you no not place an arc labeling the space. An arc is a
curved line extending between the two rays defining the angle. Questions
may also require a student to identify complimentary or supplementary angles
based purely on the picture.
I'm not sure the form of your textbooks, but American books at the secondary
level are going more towards algebra and abandoning proof based logic. If
properly prepared proof based logic problems, while challenging, could be
made accessible. The algebraic trend combined with computer based tests
promises to be a growing dilemma without tactile diagrams to supplement the
screen questions.
Some requests you may make:
1. All diagrams must be provided as tactile diagrams transcribed with
braille and including arc markings to identify relevant angles to the
problem.
2. Any question involving information to be extracted from the diagram and
involving relative position of geometric constructs must be reported as a
'given' for the problem. (this may include transversals of parallel lines,
vertical angles, supplementary angles, complimentary angles as examples)
3. Additional time is necessary, as tactile discrimination of diagrams is
more time consuming and cognitively constructing diagrams from parts to a
whole is a more challenging exercise than visually glancing at a picture.
The third one I don't have research proof of, but hope to in a couple years.
1 & 2 I believe are commonly held best practices. I welcome any comment or
criticism as I've seen some more prominent minds than mind weigh in lately.
-Sean Tikkun
On Oct 6, 2013, at 9:26 AM, raju singh <bidhwin at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello boss, even I don't know how one blind can tackle those geometry
> problem on computer, but for me, in computer, it is not possible. In
> geometry I use my Braille drawing kids to draw the things on the paper or
my
> teacher draws for me and understand. As I am computer science student, I
> even prepare my circuit board using Braille. But any ways, I believe there
> is also the drawing kids by using you can draw and solve any geometry
> problem On computer. If I was not wrong, I was talking about svg draw. But
> unfortunately I couldn't understand any thing regarding svg draw,
hopefully
> you'll understand and also share your knowledge to me. For me, Braille
kids
> are playing very important role for me. And for graph purposes, you can
use
> math tracks. Fortunately I can use mathtracks and
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bhavya
> shah
> Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 7:29 PM
> To: Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [Blindmath] Regarding Maths examinations
>
> A warm welcome to all the readers. I am currently a schoold goer and
> obviously have Maths exams. Geometry is the most difficult part of
> Maths which I find very time consuming to understand. Please help me
> regarding this matter and also I know that a blind student needs to
> make some requests for the Maths exam to be easier for him. Please
> advise me on this.
> With warm regards
> Bhavya.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Blindmath:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/bidhwin%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/jaquis%40mac.com
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 10:49:11 +0200
From: Andrew Stacey <andrew.stacey at math.ntnu.no>
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] LaTeX to MathML (was IOS7 and math support)
Message-ID: <20131007084911.GA622 at dhcp-023096.wlan.ntnu.no>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Susan is absolutely correct on this. There is no way to make it possible to
convert an arbitrary TeX document to any other format than a fixed-layout
one
simply because of the way that TeX works.
My system doesn't even try. The motivation behind it was to make it easy
for
someone (me) to write a document in some format that isn't fixed-layout
using
my LaTeX skills. Thus the two requirements were:
1. From the author's side: That the author already knows the desired output
format(s) and writes the document accordingly.
2. From the technology side: That the author can use the full *flexibility*
of
LaTeX within the above constraint.
I write stuff using all sorts of input formats and all but LaTeX suffer from
a fundamental flaw: they are too rigid. I want the ability to redefine
commands and environments, to do a bit of automatic text insertion, and lots
of similar things that TeX allows me to do because it is a full programming
language.
The ePubs that I linked to before are also available as webpages and PDFs.
But when I wrote them then I knew what outputs I was intending to produce
and
so didn't write them with lots of stuff that was dependent on knowing
exactly
where some glyph would end up on the page.
I really think that the grail of "Convert all TeX documents to ePub3 (or
whatever)" is a chimera. What really ought to be the focus is "Make it easy
for someone to write ePub3s using their existing skills and convince them
that
it's worthwhile". Doesn't trip off the tongue quite so easily, I know, but
I think it is both a more achievable goal and actually a better one.
Andrew
On Sun, Oct 06, 2013 at 03:04:50PM -0600, Susan Jolly wrote:
> This is sort of off-topic but I wanted to remind everyone that
> converting certain subsets of LaTeX, such as itex, to MathML is MUCH
> easier than converting any arbitrary valid LaTeX document to MathML.
> (The same comment applies if the target is braille math rather than
> MathML.) One major reason is that LaTeX includes a macro language.
> To my knowledge tex4ht is the only application which is designed to
> convert general LaTeX documents and even it isn't perfect. I've
> never tried to use tex4ht myself but I understand using it requires
> some investment of time to acquire the necessary expertise.
>
> SusanJ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/andrew.stacey%40math.
ntnu.no
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 10:52:10 +0200
From: Andrew Stacey <andrew.stacey at math.ntnu.no>
To: Michael Whapples <mwhapples at aim.com>
Cc: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] IOS7 and math support
Message-ID: <20131007085210.GB622 at dhcp-023096.wlan.ntnu.no>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I don't know anything about how accessibility in iBooks works so can't offer
any help other than to say that if there are some rules to follow that would
make it work then I'd be happy to integrate them into my class.
Unfortunately, I find producing ePub3 for iBooks somewhat hit and miss.
I would really like some tool like firebug where I could tweak things on the
device and see the effects in real time. Continually editing and reloading
the file takes too long to be practical. If there were some proper guide
then
that would help matters considerably.
Andrew
On Sun, Oct 06, 2013 at 11:32:19PM +0100, Michael Whapples wrote:
> I have only looked at the second ePub, wanting something shorter.
> Unfortunately that does not seem to yield math accessibility like I
> was able to experience in safari (IE. no Nemeth, no exploring of
> equations, etc, about all VoiceOver was finding was a few
> characters).
>
> That second one was very much matrices so that is why I specified it
> was only the second one I tried. However my feeling is that may be
> there will not be the same accessibility as the content control for
> showing the book page in IBooks does not have the same sort of
> navigation with VoiceOver as one has in safari.
>
> I have sent an email to Apple accessibility asking whether the maths
> accessibility does extend to other apps such as IBooks, I await
> their reply.
>
> It will be a shame if IBooks really does not have the same math
> accessibility as I have found in safari, iBooks might have been a
> platform which authors/publishers might have been willing to use to
> make books accessible.
>
> Michael Whapples
> On 06/10/2013 21:05, Andrew Stacey wrote:
> >I have some ePub3s with MathML in them if anyone would like to use them
to try
> >out iBooks' accessibility.
> >
> >This one is quite long, and the maths is graduate-level:
> >
> >http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/diffloop.epub
> >
> >This one is about quaternions (aimed at graphical programmers):
> >
> >http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/Quaternion.epub
> >
> >This one is about shaders in OpenGL programming (but still has some maths
in
> >it):
> >
> >http://www.math.ntnu.no/~stacey/documents/Shaders.epub
> >
> >I create these from LaTeX source using a class that I've developed for
> >converting LaTeX documents into XHTML or ePub3 so I can make webpages,
PDFs,
> >and ePub3s from the same source code. The fact that iBooks has (some)
support
> >for MathML was one of the reasons why I developed this.
> >
> >Andrew Stacey
> >
> >On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 08:08:40PM +0100, Michael Whapples wrote:
> >>If you have an ePub with MathML, then I believe you can just load
> >>that into IBooks. Load it into IBooks either by using iTunes data
> >>sharing or may be simpler attach it to an email and send it to
> >>yourself, and open the attachment using the IOS device and use the
> >>button for "Open in IBooks".
> >>
> >>Unfortunately I do not have an ePub with MathML content to try this,
> >>but I do hope that the math support extends to IBooks and that
> >>authors do use MathML when inserting math into ePub files.
> >>
> >>Michael Whapples
> >>On 05/10/2013 19:47, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
> >>>Are there any iBook EPub applications that we can see as samples for
Nemeth presentation on IOS?
> >>>
> >>>-Kevin
> >>>
> >>>On Oct 5, 2013, at 1:13 PM, Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Neil, The math on that page did not display correctly on my iPad
running iOS 7.0.2.
> >>>>
> >>>>I believe iOS7 does a good job with presentation MathML in Safari and
iBooks. Check out this very simple test page from W3C:
> >>>>http://www.w3.org/Math/XSL/pmathml2.xml
> >>>>
> >>>>There are a few features of this new support that should be noted:
> >>>>
> >>>>It is a multimodal experience that supports Nemeth, spoken math, and
support for low vision users. This support is tightly integrated so a user
can read with their fingers, eyes and ears at the same time. I think there
are two very powerful consequences:
> >>>>1 - it is an easy way to learn Nemeth code.
> >>>>2 - it is a nice way for a sighted general ed math teacher to work
with students with visual impairments, i.e. the general ed math teacher does
not have to know the Nemeth code.
> >>>>
> >>>>To see this behavior in action:
> >>>>Turn on Voiceover on your iOS device.
> >>>>Connect a braille display.
> >>>>Open the url above in Safari.
> >>>>Move the VO cursor to an equation on that page.
> >>>>Observe that VO reads the equation using speech and displays it on the
braille display.
> >>>>Play with the rotor and note that you can read the equation by symbol,
small expresions, large expressions, etc.
> >>>>Activate the equation with a double tap, 3-6-chord, etc and view the
equation in full screen mode.
> >>>>Move through the equation using the VO cursor and drill down on an
expression or term to view it alone in full screen mode.
> >>>>
> >>>>Best,
> >>>>Ed
> >>>>Sent from my iPad
> >>>>
> >>>>On Oct 5, 2013, at 11:47 AM, "Neil Soiffer"
<NeilS at dessci.com<mailto:NeilS at dessci.com>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>If you want some simple math to try out, take a look at the site
> >>>>onemathematicalcat.org<http://onemathematicalcat.org>. It has alg 1,
alg 2, and geometry. Susan said she
> >>>>had problems there but she had IOS 7 problems. Hopefully others will
have
> >>>>more success. Here's a sample page with some simple fractions and
powers:
>
>>>>http://www.onemathematicalcat.org/algebra_book/online_problems/el_recip.
htm
> >>>>
> >>>>Neil Soiffer
> >>>>Senior Scientist
> >>>>Design Science, Inc.
> >>>>www.dessci.com<http://www.dessci.com>
> >>>>~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor
~
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>Blindmath mailing list
> >>>>Blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:Blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/ed.summers%40sas.
com
> >>>>
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>Blindmath mailing list
> >>>>Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
.com
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Blindmath mailing list
> >>>Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.co
m
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Blindmath mailing list
> >>Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/andrew.stacey%40mat
h.ntnu.no
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blindmath mailing list
> >Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
>
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com
>
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