[Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille

Mike Jolls mrspock56 at hotmail.com
Sun Sep 15 16:46:22 UTC 2013 

That's interesting you made an error listening to Jaws.  No surprise there.  Jaws takes its best shot considering the data.
There's a good reason to use audio AND Braille.  With Braille, you could have gotten the exact letter spelling, although you could have told Jaws to spell her name.
 
> From: i.c.bray at win.net
> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 12:21:24 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> 
> Tami,
> 
> Holy Crap... You're Female!?  ROFL!
> I completely missed that!  My sincerest of appologies as I think I referred 
> to you as "Tommy" last week.
> /embarrassment/
> I never checked the spelling of your name and JAWS pronounced the two quite 
> similarly.
> 
> I want to encourage you to keep being a "mean old lady".  I love it!
> 
> Ian
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics" 
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 11:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> 
> 
> Mike,
> 
> Some of the factors you mention no doubt do come into play in the lack
> of availability of math/science texts. But apparently the core reason is
> cost and time. I remember reading a couple years back how it can cost
> something like $70k to transcribe a math text. Er... Anybody feel free
> to correct me if I'm wrong on that; I remember that figure because I
> found it quite shocking. There is a low demand for those texts, also,
> and different profs use different texts. Some change texts frequently. I
> took a stab at getting back to school a few years back and kept running
> into trouble with texts... It would take a year or two, the school
> assured me, to get the text transcribed into braille, but the profs
> changed texts every year, so... I was an older student and didn't have
> time for that, so I decided to get back to work... Then the economy
> crashed, so that didn't work, either. Then I moved here and the economy
> is picking up, but I still am not finding jobs to apply for here. Oh, well.
> 
> The conversation about the expense on texts would be in the archives of
> this list, come to think of it. I was busy with the family stuff at the
> time and keep meaning to go back and read it myself with more attention.
> It was quite fascinating.
> 
> I always love reading how others conceptualize and work with math. I was
> really curious how I would make the transition from sighted math geek to
> blind math whatever. I plan to get back to school later on for a vanity
> degree -- one I'm getting to old to use for a career but that I'm going
> to get just to say I did it! I notice other little old ladies are doing
> that these days. We didn't manage the hurdles of discrimination and
> other barriers back in the day, but now we can do what we want, so
> there! /lol/ I also am planning to wait on the math/science thing until
> I have my own toolkit and all so I don't have to fuss with disability
> services or any of that just to be able to do my homework. Well, I may
> get a reader through them or something, or just hire my own. I just am
> not interested in hearing, "Since blind people can't really do math and
> you're not going to need it in any job you can do..." Which I heard back
> in the day as "since girls can't really do math and are not going to
> need it in the kitchen or to raise babies..." Probably, some fool will
> assure me that "since little old ladies can't really learn math and
> you're not going to need it in the nursing home..." Shortly after that,
> they will probably whine and tell me they thought little old ladies are
> supposed to be nice despite my demonstration that no such thing is true.
> /evil smirk/ But if I have my own tools and all, there attitude won't
> affect my logistics. So there!
> 
> Tami
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 09/15/2013 04:38 AM, Mike Jolls wrote:
> > I'm curious why electronic math books are difficult to find.
> >
> > Is the problem the publisher - not wanting to release the book in an 
> > electronic format?
> > Or perhaps publishers don't want to have to deal with special 
> > formatting/publishing for the blind - they think this task falls to 
> > special interest groups to receive their electronic file and re-publish it 
> > in the format that is necessary?
> >
> > Is the problem that there isn't a formatting standard for alternative 
> > printing of scientific/math texts so publishers don't understand how books 
> > need to be formatted?
> > Perhaps the debate between computer braille, nemeth braille, unified 
> > braille hasn't been resolved yet.
> > I know there was a big debate over which was better - math in UEB (takes 
> > more space to format) or math in Nemeth.
> > The last thing I read on the net said that BANA has adopted UEB which uses 
> > Nemeth for formatting scientific sections of text, so perhaps they've 
> > resolved that debate.
> >
> > Has the format been agreed upon, but there aren't enough transcribers to 
> > do the work to publish the necessary text?
> >
> > Or does the problem lie somewhere else?
> >
> > Just wondering if we can identify the problem, so that it can be solved.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> CC: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >> From: sabra1023 at gmail.com
> >> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 02:30:46 -0500
> >> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> >>
> >> I do everything in computer Brill. It helps me more because if I don't 
> >> know how to write a symbol, I can insert it as a Unicode character. 
> >> Especially when you start doing advanced math, the symbols get to be very 
> >> awkward. I use parentheses and other special symbols rather then sub and 
> >> superscripts to help me interpret equations that contain fractions and 
> >> exponents. Simple graphs are fine, but I prefer to replace more complex 
> >> graphs with tables. Also, despite the thoughts of many sighted people, 
> >> braille has worked the best for me to represent mathematics. Don't let 
> >> any sighted person make you think you should be happy with a reader or 
> >> audio textbook. So far, the best option for me has been electronic 
> >> textbooks that I can read with refreshable braille along with 
> >> supplementary tactile illustrations when necessary. In addition to being 
> >> more cost-effective, these books are more portable. However, electronic 
> >> math books that are user-friendly chill blind person can be difficult to 
> >> find. B
> asically though, usable book in any format will be difficult to come by, so 
> don't let lack of availability get you down. Right now, I have worked it out 
> with my teacher so that I can use an earlier addition of a book the class 
> isn't using so I can have access to it.
> >>
> >> On Sep 15, 2013, at 1:51 AM, "I. C. Bray" <i.c.bray at win.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes, I understand the whole linear-spatial thing.
> >>> I tend to be able to "imagine" what a trig graph looks like based on the
> >>> equation... I learned how to interpret linear, quadratic, third-order
> >>> equations while I had sight...
> >>> Three dimensional graphs... still whip me around though... ugh.
> >>>
> >>> The right to left thing is probably an inherrant "feature" of braille. 
> >>> What
> >>> I mean is, is that braille is meant to be read Left to Right, so 
> >>> prefixes
> >>> and super / subscripts can be misinterpereted.
> >>>
> >>> I am only theorizing here, because I have not yet begun to work or do
> >>> advanced math in braille yet, but I imagine that using spaces to isolate
> >>> terms and expressions even though it isn't propper in nemeth should help
> >>> some.
> >>>
> >>> Ian
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "sabra1023" <sabra1023 at gmail.com>
> >>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> >>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Cc: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> >>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 2:18 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> : All I know is that I write my math homework in Microsoft Word. I have 
> >>> to
> >>> be reading with a braille display, and everything needs to be linear, 
> >>> not
> >>> multidimensional. Also, my brain can't think correctly if I have to work
> >>> from right to left. I don't know if those math needs are common among 
> >>> blind
> >>> people, but you could try them to see if it helps. Oh, and another thing 
> >>> is
> >>> that it might help to get text descriptions of diagrams and represent 
> >>> things
> >>> algebraically rather then graphically as much as possible.
> >>> :
> >>> : On Sep 15, 2013, at 1:03 AM, "I. C. Bray" <i.c.bray at win.net> wrote:
> >>> :
> >>> : > Neil,
> >>> : > Well, I am going to need to use something, and I have been putting 
> >>> off
> >>> : > deciding until I get some idea what's out there and what makes sence 
> >>> for
> >>> me.
> >>> : > I don't want to have to learn 5 new programs and try to keep the 
> >>> command
> >>> &
> >>> : > control sets seperate...
> >>> : > I've been reading the BlindMath ListServ and hearing the 
> >>> difficulties
> >>> and am
> >>> : > just hoping I collect enough info and various ways to approach my 
> >>> own
> >>> Math,
> >>> : > Science, and Teaching needs now that I'm blind.
> >>> : >
> >>> : > OH, Side note question.
> >>> : > Is the Blind Science listserv not active??  I Joined the list, and 
> >>> do
> >>> not
> >>> : > think I got any replies...
> >>> : >
> >>> : > Ian
> >>> : > ----- Original Message -----
> >>> : > From: "Neil Soiffer" <NeilS at dessci.com>
> >>> : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> >>> : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> >>> : > Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 1:52 AM
> >>> : > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> >>> : >
> >>> : >
> >>> : > : You can also use MathType with Word and then use Duxbury to 
> >>> translate
> >>> to
> >>> : > : Nemeth.  Like Scientific notebook, with MathType you just type the
> >>> math in
> >>> : > : using an easy math editor. If you are a familiar with Word, it is
> >>> probably
> >>> : > : a better option than getting Scientific Notebook and having to 
> >>> learn
> >>> that.
> >>> : > : MathType is just a math editor and so is a lot cheaper than 
> >>> Scientific
> >>> : > : notebook.  Your school might already have a site license [full
> >>> disclosure:
> >>> : > : my company makes MathType]
> >>> : > :
> >>> : > : Neil Soiffer
> >>> : > : Senior Scientist
> >>> : > : Design Science, Inc.
> >>> : > : www.dessci.com
> >>> : > : ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation 
> >>> Editor
> >>> ~
> >>> : > :
> >>> : > :
> >>> : > :
> >>> : > : On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Allan Mesoga
> >>> : > <allan.mesoga at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>> : > :
> >>> : > : > You can also use scientific notebook and save it as latex and 
> >>> open
> >>> it
> >>> : > : > using duxbury then translate.
> >>> : > : >
> >>> : > : > On 9/10/13, Sharon O'Neill <soneill1 at haverford.edu> wrote:
> >>> : > : > > Hi Gabriela:  were you able to find an answer to the Nemeth
> >>> Braille
> >>> : > : > > software question?  I see they directed you to the fellow that 
> >>> has
> >>> : > : > revamped
> >>> : > : > > the nfbnet list for blindmath.  Were you able to contact him?
> >>> : > : > >
> >>> : > : > > I would be very interested in what he suggested.
> >>> : > : > >
> >>> : > : > > Regards,
> >>> : > : > >
> >>> : > : > > Sheri
> >>> : > : > >
> >>> : > : > >
> >>> : > : > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Gabriela Moats
> >>> <gmoats at haverford.edu>
> >>> : > : > > wrote:
> >>> : > : > >
> >>> : > : > >> Hi all,
> >>> : > : > >> I need to make raised tactile images that contain labels with
> >>> math
> >>> : > : > >> symbols for a blind student and he would like them to be 
> >>> typed in
> >>> : > Nemeth
> >>> : > : > >> Braille. Usually I just type them in SimBraille font and then
> >>> feed it
> >>> : > : > >> through an embosser so that the dots become raised Braille, 
> >>> but I
> >>> : > need
> >>> : > : > to
> >>> : > : > >> be able to type in Nemeth Braille for this science course. 
> >>> Does
> >>> : > anyone
> >>> : > : > >> know
> >>> : > : > >> of a software program or font I can download that would allow 
> >>> me
> >>> to
> >>> : > do
> >>> : > : > >> this?
> >>> : > : > >>
> >>> : > : > >> Thank you,
> >>> : > : > >>
> >>> : > : > >> Gabriela
> >>> : > : > >>
> >>> : > : > >> --
> >>> : > : > >> Gabriela Echavarría Moats
> >>> : > : > >> Special Assignment Coordinator of Accommodations
> >>> : > : > >> Office of Disabilities Services
> >>> : > : > >> Haverford College
> >>> : > : > >> Stokes Hall 118F
> >>> : > : > >> gmoats at haverford.edu
> >>> : > : > >> _______________________________________________
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> >>> : > : > >>
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