[Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille

Mike Jolls mrspock56 at hotmail.com
Sun Sep 15 16:42:45 UTC 2013 

I didn't know that it could cost up to $70K to transcribe a math text into Braille.  If that's true ... WOW!!!
 
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that in this day and age of electronic files, computer processing technology, there HAS to be a way to define a markup language that can be translated to Braille.  Come up with a markup with the necessary "tokens" (i.e. similar to the TAGS in HTML which denote what type of data element you're defining) so that a text block can be identified, a table can be identified, an equation can be identified, and so on.  There are a lot of brilliant people out there.  Surely some group can arrive at an agreement and define a markup language such that every distinct piece of data in a textbook can be identified.  And if at some point, another data entity is created (as things do change) then just define another data identifier.  But have a standard set that DOESN'T CHANGE for God's sake.  Then, once that's done, force the publishers to publish in that format.  EVERY .. SINGLE .. TIME.  And have them create an electronic file containing this markup which is what they use to print the book from.  Their publishing software can ignore any accessibility information that might be part of the publishing file.  Once the standard is defined, the "accessibility" experts can get their hands on the specification and write custom code to process each of the unique identifiers.
 
The electronic publisher file could then be run through a separate process that "reformats" the textbook file and looks for the standard set of markup tags.  When it finds one of the tags, it knows what data elements it expects to find along with that tag, and so it can execute custom code associated with that tag to format that particular data block.  If both groups (publisher and accessibility publishers) are both following the same standard, there shouldn't be any surprises.  Next, here's where having transcribers would probably still be necessary.  A computer program can only do what it's programmed to do, and perhaps content that is translated into the accessible textbook format might just not be good for blind students.  Enter the translator.  Their job is to proofread and to "re-orient" the pre-formatted text.  The hope would be that enough analysis is done by the "accessibility experts" that developed the custom code for the accessibility translation that the transcriber only has to get involved manually say 30% of the time.  I do know that nothing is perfect, and you WOULD need to have manual translation because even though you can program the computer to do something the same way all the time ... sometimes the "automated way" will just probably not work.  However, if the automation was developed well, hopefully the cost of publication would be significantly reduced.
 
But let's not kid ourselves here.  This would be a major undertaking.  In the long run, it would allow the student to hopefully get their text at the same time as the sighted counterpart.
And we could make sure then, that given this standard output from the publishers, you could write translation software that could deliver to Notetakers, iPads, and other devices that don't exist yet.  It would also reinforce the transcribers career.
 
One individual won't be able to do this.  It will take an organization such as the NFB or perhaps combination of NFB/AFB or whoever to get together and agree, and then ... it would probably come to this ... bring a lawsuit against the publishers and make them comply.  I just wonder if something like this will ever happen.  As I see it, everyone has to agree this is a good thing, and then resources have to be allocated.  Without it, an idea like this is dead.
 
 
 
> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 08:51:40 -0700
> From: tami at poodlemutt.com
> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> 
> Mike,
> 
> Some of the factors you mention no doubt do come into play in the lack 
> of availability of math/science texts. But apparently the core reason is 
> cost and time. I remember reading a couple years back how it can cost 
> something like $70k to transcribe a math text. Er... Anybody feel free 
> to correct me if I'm wrong on that; I remember that figure because I 
> found it quite shocking. There is a low demand for those texts, also, 
> and different profs use different texts. Some change texts frequently. I 
> took a stab at getting back to school a few years back and kept running 
> into trouble with texts... It would take a year or two, the school 
> assured me, to get the text transcribed into braille, but the profs 
> changed texts every year, so... I was an older student and didn't have 
> time for that, so I decided to get back to work... Then the economy 
> crashed, so that didn't work, either. Then I moved here and the economy 
> is picking up, but I still am not finding jobs to apply for here. Oh, well.
> 
> The conversation about the expense on texts would be in the archives of 
> this list, come to think of it. I was busy with the family stuff at the 
> time and keep meaning to go back and read it myself with more attention. 
> It was quite fascinating.
> 
> I always love reading how others conceptualize and work with math. I was 
> really curious how I would make the transition from sighted math geek to 
> blind math whatever. I plan to get back to school later on for a vanity 
> degree -- one I'm getting to old to use for a career but that I'm going 
> to get just to say I did it! I notice other little old ladies are doing 
> that these days. We didn't manage the hurdles of discrimination and 
> other barriers back in the day, but now we can do what we want, so 
> there! /lol/ I also am planning to wait on the math/science thing until 
> I have my own toolkit and all so I don't have to fuss with disability 
> services or any of that just to be able to do my homework. Well, I may 
> get a reader through them or something, or just hire my own. I just am 
> not interested in hearing, "Since blind people can't really do math and 
> you're not going to need it in any job you can do..." Which I heard back 
> in the day as "since girls can't really do math and are not going to 
> need it in the kitchen or to raise babies..." Probably, some fool will 
> assure me that "since little old ladies can't really learn math and 
> you're not going to need it in the nursing home..." Shortly after that, 
> they will probably whine and tell me they thought little old ladies are 
> supposed to be nice despite my demonstration that no such thing is true. 
> /evil smirk/ But if I have my own tools and all, there attitude won't 
> affect my logistics. So there!
> 
> Tami
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 09/15/2013 04:38 AM, Mike Jolls wrote:
> > I'm curious why electronic math books are difficult to find.
> >
> > Is the problem the publisher - not wanting to release the book in an electronic format?
> > Or perhaps publishers don't want to have to deal with special formatting/publishing for the blind - they think this task falls to special interest groups to receive their electronic file and re-publish it in the format that is necessary?
> >
> > Is the problem that there isn't a formatting standard for alternative printing of scientific/math texts so publishers don't understand how books need to be formatted?
> > Perhaps the debate between computer braille, nemeth braille, unified braille hasn't been resolved yet.
> > I know there was a big debate over which was better - math in UEB (takes more space to format) or math in Nemeth.
> > The last thing I read on the net said that BANA has adopted UEB which uses Nemeth for formatting scientific sections of text, so perhaps they've resolved that debate.
> >
> > Has the format been agreed upon, but there aren't enough transcribers to do the work to publish the necessary text?
> >
> > Or does the problem lie somewhere else?
> >
> > Just wondering if we can identify the problem, so that it can be solved.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> CC: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >> From: sabra1023 at gmail.com
> >> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 02:30:46 -0500
> >> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> >>
> >> I do everything in computer Brill. It helps me more because if I don't know how to write a symbol, I can insert it as a Unicode character. Especially when you start doing advanced math, the symbols get to be very awkward. I use parentheses and other special symbols rather then sub and superscripts to help me interpret equations that contain fractions and exponents. Simple graphs are fine, but I prefer to replace more complex graphs with tables. Also, despite the thoughts of many sighted people, braille has worked the best for me to represent mathematics. Don't let any sighted person make you think you should be happy with a reader or audio textbook. So far, the best option for me has been electronic textbooks that I can read with refreshable braille along with supplementary tactile illustrations when necessary. In addition to being more cost-effective, these books are more portable. However, electronic math books that are user-friendly chill blind person can be difficult to find. B
> asically though, usable book in any format will be difficult to come by, so don't let lack of availability get you down. Right now, I have worked it out with my teacher so that I can use an earlier addition of a book the class isn't using so I can have access to it.
> >>
> >> On Sep 15, 2013, at 1:51 AM, "I. C. Bray" <i.c.bray at win.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes, I understand the whole linear-spatial thing.
> >>> I tend to be able to "imagine" what a trig graph looks like based on the
> >>> equation... I learned how to interpret linear, quadratic, third-order
> >>> equations while I had sight...
> >>> Three dimensional graphs... still whip me around though... ugh.
> >>>
> >>> The right to left thing is probably an inherrant "feature" of braille.  What
> >>> I mean is, is that braille is meant to be read Left to Right, so prefixes
> >>> and super / subscripts can be misinterpereted.
> >>>
> >>> I am only theorizing here, because I have not yet begun to work or do
> >>> advanced math in braille yet, but I imagine that using spaces to isolate
> >>> terms and expressions even though it isn't propper in nemeth should help
> >>> some.
> >>>
> >>> Ian
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "sabra1023" <sabra1023 at gmail.com>
> >>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> >>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Cc: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> >>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 2:18 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> : All I know is that I write my math homework in Microsoft Word. I have to
> >>> be reading with a braille display, and everything needs to be linear, not
> >>> multidimensional. Also, my brain can't think correctly if I have to work
> >>> from right to left. I don't know if those math needs are common among blind
> >>> people, but you could try them to see if it helps. Oh, and another thing is
> >>> that it might help to get text descriptions of diagrams and represent things
> >>> algebraically rather then graphically as much as possible.
> >>> :
> >>> : On Sep 15, 2013, at 1:03 AM, "I. C. Bray" <i.c.bray at win.net> wrote:
> >>> :
> >>> : > Neil,
> >>> : > Well, I am going to need to use something, and I have been putting off
> >>> : > deciding until I get some idea what's out there and what makes sence for
> >>> me.
> >>> : > I don't want to have to learn 5 new programs and try to keep the command
> >>> &
> >>> : > control sets seperate...
> >>> : > I've been reading the BlindMath ListServ and hearing the difficulties
> >>> and am
> >>> : > just hoping I collect enough info and various ways to approach my own
> >>> Math,
> >>> : > Science, and Teaching needs now that I'm blind.
> >>> : >
> >>> : > OH, Side note question.
> >>> : > Is the Blind Science listserv not active??  I Joined the list, and do
> >>> not
> >>> : > think I got any replies...
> >>> : >
> >>> : > Ian
> >>> : > ----- Original Message -----
> >>> : > From: "Neil Soiffer" <NeilS at dessci.com>
> >>> : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> >>> : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> >>> : > Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 1:52 AM
> >>> : > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> >>> : >
> >>> : >
> >>> : > : You can also use MathType with Word and then use Duxbury to translate
> >>> to
> >>> : > : Nemeth.  Like Scientific notebook, with MathType you just type the
> >>> math in
> >>> : > : using an easy math editor. If you are a familiar with Word, it is
> >>> probably
> >>> : > : a better option than getting Scientific Notebook and having to learn
> >>> that.
> >>> : > : MathType is just a math editor and so is a lot cheaper than Scientific
> >>> : > : notebook.  Your school might already have a site license [full
> >>> disclosure:
> >>> : > : my company makes MathType]
> >>> : > :
> >>> : > : Neil Soiffer
> >>> : > : Senior Scientist
> >>> : > : Design Science, Inc.
> >>> : > : www.dessci.com
> >>> : > : ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor
> >>> ~
> >>> : > :
> >>> : > :
> >>> : > :
> >>> : > : On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Allan Mesoga
> >>> : > <allan.mesoga at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>> : > :
> >>> : > : > You can also use scientific notebook and save it as latex and open
> >>> it
> >>> : > : > using duxbury then translate.
> >>> : > : >
> >>> : > : > On 9/10/13, Sharon O'Neill <soneill1 at haverford.edu> wrote:
> >>> : > : > > Hi Gabriela:  were you able to find an answer to the Nemeth
> >>> Braille
> >>> : > : > > software question?  I see they directed you to the fellow that has
> >>> : > : > revamped
> >>> : > : > > the nfbnet list for blindmath.  Were you able to contact him?
> >>> : > : > >
> >>> : > : > > I would be very interested in what he suggested.
> >>> : > : > >
> >>> : > : > > Regards,
> >>> : > : > >
> >>> : > : > > Sheri
> >>> : > : > >
> >>> : > : > >
> >>> : > : > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Gabriela Moats
> >>> <gmoats at haverford.edu>
> >>> : > : > > wrote:
> >>> : > : > >
> >>> : > : > >> Hi all,
> >>> : > : > >> I need to make raised tactile images that contain labels with
> >>> math
> >>> : > : > >> symbols for a blind student and he would like them to be typed in
> >>> : > Nemeth
> >>> : > : > >> Braille. Usually I just type them in SimBraille font and then
> >>> feed it
> >>> : > : > >> through an embosser so that the dots become raised Braille, but I
> >>> : > need
> >>> : > : > to
> >>> : > : > >> be able to type in Nemeth Braille for this science course. Does
> >>> : > anyone
> >>> : > : > >> know
> >>> : > : > >> of a software program or font I can download that would allow me
> >>> to
> >>> : > do
> >>> : > : > >> this?
> >>> : > : > >>
> >>> : > : > >> Thank you,
> >>> : > : > >>
> >>> : > : > >> Gabriela
> >>> : > : > >>
> >>> : > : > >> --
> >>> : > : > >> Gabriela Echavarría Moats
> >>> : > : > >> Special Assignment Coordinator of Accommodations
> >>> : > : > >> Office of Disabilities Services
> >>> : > : > >> Haverford College
> >>> : > : > >> Stokes Hall 118F
> >>> : > : > >> gmoats at haverford.edu
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