[Blindmath] books in accessible format

Mon Sep 16 17:02:17 UTC 2013

I'm unclear on one thing though. Don't you think Learnng Ally would love 
to be the company  you describe below only it's just not that easy? 
Learning Ally is a non-profit so maybe you're thinking a for-profit 
company would be more effective? I'm not disputing that. I don't know. 
I'm just not clear on what you are getting at.

I wish I knew more about this stuff.  All I know is from what I read on 
this list. There seems to be a lot of people working in different 
directions. That seems to be the case in everything from non-profits to 
software.  I am not aware of any actual duplicate projects but there 
does seem to be a lot of overlap in all aspects of this problem. And it 
seems extremely difficult to get an understanding as to how all the 
pieces fit together.

On 09/16/13 10:18, I. C. Bray wrote:
> NO, I'm not talking about for end-consumers.
> I'm talking about products & vendors who are required to release items,
> publications, and electronics etc.
> Instead of each individual company like Sony, Motorola, and perhaps Software
> Developers...
> The NFB-Publishing would be given printed materials or PDFs or would be
> responsible for reviewing a company's websites, and whatever else for
> functionality.
>
> Example:
> Let's say MathWorks produces a new Calculus book.
> Instead of them publishing the hardback text only, they release preliminary,
> intermediate, and final drafts along with errata to my hypothetical
> publishing company.
> Since by law, everything published for sighted people should be available
> reasonably for blind people, NFBPublishing would either OCR-Tag PDF copies,
> have them recorded in audio and get them published into braille or just BRF
> formats.
>
> Then, Since the Publishing Company is producing the material, and we have
> the means, technology, and the appropriate understanding of what is best
> needed, we do it all.
> When a blind customer requires a full text in braille, then the customer
> pays for the textbook as normal, takes the ADA Card and Receipt from the
> book and submits it to the publisher or whatever, and then the
> Publisher/owner exchanges the Print book for the Accessible Version, or the
> customer pays a small fee to keep the print copy and receives the other too.
>
>
> Then NFB Publishing could manage textbook Exchanges, and there would not be
> a huge need to print thousands of coppies, but the cost of publishing ANY
> book is spread out to any and all purchases of the book thus making it
> easier on people like Me, Tami, and others to buy our Physics & Linear
> Analysis texts at a REASONABLE cost instead of the $75000 per...
>
> Please do realize... this is just a brainstorming exercise here... I'm
> thinking out loud and just seeing what others think too...
>
> The idea that I want/need a book in braille and it's nearly impossible to
> find, and so costly to produce is silly.
>
> Often, hours upon hours of time from various Disability Resource Centers is
> eaten up by producing an odd copy or two of accessible material for only a
> small number of students... if those hours were freed-up and the texts ALL
> managed throughout the publishing process, and a small number published
> centrally... I'm just thinking it might work!!
>
> Ian
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 9:25 AM
> Subject: [Blindmath] books in accessible format (was: Typing in
> NemethBraille)
>
>
> : Do you know about Learning Ally and Bookshare? The company you describe
> : doesn't sound very different from Learning Ally and some of what
> : Bookshare does would overlap as well. I let my Learning Ally membership
> : expire 20 years ago. It was calledRFBD back then. But they used to send
> : me textbooks in a digital format on diskette.  So they might have worked
> : out the whole mathematical symbol thing by now. But I wouldn't know.
> : Bookshare operates under an exception in United States copyright law. So
> : they don't have everything and not everything they have is available
> : internationally. Even so, it would probably be a lot easier to with one
> : of these organizations to tweak their existing infrastructure rather
> : than start from scratch on your own.
> :
> :
> : On 09/16/13 03:38, I. C. Bray wrote:
> : > Michael,
> : >
> : > Is there any means by which NFB members could join together and form a
> : > publishing company whereby we accept materials and products and produce
> the
> : > accessible materials for the originating manufacturers?
> : > As an example,  Say NFB-Media were to either hire or contract
> organizations
> : > who already produce accessible materials specifically for the blind and
> : > would be paid by the Manufacturers for doing it for them?
> : > This way, we the blind consumers are directly producing what we need.
> Our
> : > own standards of accessability are met, Companies are given proven,
> : > accessible materials to distribute as needed, and the NFB-Publishing are
> : > granted royalty for the distribution of said working / proven materials,
> and
> : > Manufacturers  are able to concentrate on the functionality while we
> make
> : > sure to communicate it appropriately.
> : >
> : > I mean, perhaps I am dreaming here, but is that really too much to
> manage?
> : >
> : > Rather than constantly be inopposition, be an active means to a
> solution.
> : >
> : > Ok... now... discuss.
> : >
> : > Respectfully,
> : > Ian  C. Bray
> : >
> : >
> : > ----- Original Message -----
> : > From: "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples at aim.com>
> : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> : > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:45 AM
> : > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> : >
> : >
> : > :I am not sure I want to encourage just debate about why, after all
> : > : action would be better.
> : > :
> : > : One thing which is slightly shocking, certainly concerning is that the
> : > : Coalition of e-reader manufacturers have sought a waiver from the FCC
> to
> : > : be exempt from the accessibility requirements of the Communications
> and
> : > : Video Accessibility Act (http://techpolicy.acm.org/blog/?p=3177). I
> : > : think we can all draw conclusions from this...
> : > :
> : > : I understand various organisations, including the NFB, have provided
> : > : comments to the FCC.
> : > :
> : > : We all need to appreciate that math accessibility for the blind is
> : > : normally only a small concern out of many for any individual company
> : > : involved in making technical documents accessible and that for a good
> : > : solution it will require multiple companies to cooperate. As an
> example,
> : > : just to read a PDF on your computer, it requires the PDF reader (eg.
> : > : Adobe reader) to be made accessible, but that will require suitable
> : > : support in the accessibility API of the platform it is run on (most
> : > : likely Windows, so some support from Microsoft), and then the screen
> : > : reader would need to support the math accessibility, and then this all
> : > : will only work if the provider of the PDF document actually bothers to
> : > : tag the document suitably. This is not to say math accessibility is
> not
> : > : important, but rather its not necessarily at the top of their lists of
> : > : priorities and we all probably have a responsibility to remind them
> that
> : > : math accessibility is important and that it might be a deciding factor
> : > : in your purchasing of software.
> : > :
> : > : May be as individuals we might have little affect, but if colleges and
> : > : universities are faced with needing to make their courses accessible
> to
> : > : us as individuals, then their purchasing decisions may be affected and
> : > : then that might be something significant to some of these
> : > : manufacturers/publishers.
> : > :
> : > : Michael Whapples
> : > : On 16/09/2013 00:06, sabra1023 wrote:
> : > : > These books can be made accessible in a digital format for a lot
> cheaper
> : > then a hardcopy transcription, and maybe the publishers even have it the
> : > books and an accessible format. However, if you try to get the book
> : > digitally from them, they will give you a PDF, which you cannot fully
> : > access. I think that we are having these access issues because a big
> portion
> : > of the cited population believes that blind people have no right to
> expect
> : > success and Matt. I keep hearing all the time that math is just too
> visual
> : > and that the best blind people can expect is to learn basic algebra, but
> my
> : > experience with Matt has shown me that math and itself isn't visual.
> Sighted
> : > people might feel the most comfortable with a visual representation, but
> : > that in no way means the subject itself is visual. Also, I've known
> plenty
> : > of blind people who went way past calculus and use their skills in
> : > engineering and computer science. If publishers thought about
> accessibility
> : > from the beginning, it wouldn't be extremely difficult or costly to make
> : > sure that blind people as well as other populations can have access to
> math
> : > electronic text.
> : > : >
> : > : > On Sep 15, 2013, at 11:49 AM, Mike Jolls <mrspock56 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> : > : >
> : > : >> Does your software also back-translate it from Nemeth back to
> standard
> : > English so that a teacher can get the completed homework from the
> student,
> : > open it up inWord or some other standard application, and read it in
> symbols
> : > they understand as a sighted person?
> : > : >>
> : > : >>
> : > : >>> From: pmw at mega-data.com
> : > : >>> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> : > : >>> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 12:20:59 -0400
> : > : >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>> Getting the diagrams in tactile form (using encapsulated "swell"
> : > paper) is a great help in math.  I have prepared tactile diagrams for
> : > several VI students that I work with, and they have found the diagrams
> to be
> : > extremely helpful.  I put a small amount of Braille on the diagrams
> (just
> : > enough to be able to create a separate legend with more information
> about
> : > the diagram).
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>> Re writing your math homework:  I am currently working on some
> : > software that would allow you to create and edit your math homework in
> : > Nemeth Braille.  It's not quite ready for testing yet, however.  I will
> make
> : > an announcement when it is ready, because I will be looking for students
> in
> : > math or math-intensive science courses to test this software.
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>> -----Original Message-----
> : > : >>> From: sabra1023 [mailto:sabra1023 at gmail.com]
> : > : >>> Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 2:18 AM
> : > : >>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> : > : >>> Cc: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> : > : >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>> All I know is that I write my math homework in Microsoft Word. I
> have
> : > to be reading with a braille display, and everything needs to be linear,
> not
> : > multidimensional. Also, my brain can't think correctly if I have to work
> : > from right to left. I don't know if those math needs are common among
> blind
> : > people, but you could try them to see if it helps. Oh, and another thing
> is
> : > that it might help to get text descriptions of diagrams and represent
> things
> : > algebraically rather then graphically as much as possible.
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>> On Sep 15, 2013, at 1:03 AM, "I. C. Bray" <i.c.bray at win.net>
> wrote:
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>>> Neil,
> : > : >>>> Well, I am going to need to use something, and I have been
> putting
> : > off
> : > : >>>> deciding until I get some idea what's out there and what makes
> sence
> : > for me.
> : > : >>>> I don't want to have to learn 5 new programs and try to keep the
> : > : >>>> command & control sets seperate...
> : > : >>>> I've been reading the BlindMath ListServ and hearing the
> difficulties
> : > : >>>> and am just hoping I collect enough info and various ways to
> approach
> : > : >>>> my own Math, Science, and Teaching needs now that I'm blind.
> : > : >>>>
> : > : >>>> OH, Side note question.
> : > : >>>> Is the Blind Science listserv not active??  I Joined the list,
> and do
> : > : >>>> not think I got any replies...
> : > : >>>>
> : > : >>>> Ian
> : > : >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> : > : >>>> From: "Neil Soiffer" <NeilS at dessci.com>
> : > : >>>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> : > : >>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> : > : >>>> Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 1:52 AM
> : > : >>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
> : > : >>>>
> : > : >>>>
> : > : >>>> : You can also use MathType with Word and then use Duxbury to
> : > : >>>> translate to
> : > : >>>> : Nemeth.  Like Scientific notebook, with MathType you just type
> the
> : > : >>>> math in
> : > : >>>> : using an easy math editor. If you are a familiar with Word, it
> is
> : > : >>>> probably
> : > : >>>> : a better option than getting Scientific Notebook and having to
> : > learn that.
> : > : >>>> : MathType is just a math editor and so is a lot cheaper than
> : > : >>>> Scientific
> : > : >>>> : notebook.  Your school might already have a site license [full
> : > disclosure:
> : > : >>>> : my company makes MathType]
> : > : >>>> :
> : > : >>>> : Neil Soiffer
> : > : >>>> : Senior Scientist
> : > : >>>> : Design Science, Inc.
> : > : >>>> : www.dessci.com
> : > : >>>> : ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation
> : > : >>>> Editor ~
> : > : >>>> :
> : > : >>>> :
> : > : >>>> :
> : > : >>>> : On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Allan Mesoga
> : > : >>>> <allan.mesoga at gmail.com>wrote:
> : > : >>>> :
> : > : >>>> : > You can also use scientific notebook and save it as latex and
> : > open
> : > : >>>> it
> : > : >>>> : > using duxbury then translate.
> : > : >>>> : >
> : > : >>>> : > On 9/10/13, Sharon O'Neill <soneill1 at haverford.edu> wrote:
> : > : >>>> : > > Hi Gabriela:  were you able to find an answer to the Nemeth
> : > : >>>> Braille
> : > : >>>> : > > software question?  I see they directed you to the fellow
> that
> : > : >>>> has
> : > : >>>> : > revamped
> : > : >>>> : > > the nfbnet list for blindmath.  Were you able to contact
> him?
> : > : >>>> : > >
> : > : >>>> : > > I would be very interested in what he suggested.
> : > : >>>> : > >
> : > : >>>> : > > Regards,
> : > : >>>> : > >
> : > : >>>> : > > Sheri
> : > : >>>> : > >
> : > : >>>> : > >
> : > : >>>> : > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Gabriela Moats
> : > : >>>> <gmoats at haverford.edu>
> : > : >>>> : > > wrote:
> : > : >>>> : > >
> : > : >>>> : > >> Hi all,
> : > : >>>> : > >> I need to make raised tactile images that contain labels
> with
> : > : >>>> math
> : > : >>>> : > >> symbols for a blind student and he would like them to be
> typed
> : > : >>>> in Nemeth
> : > : >>>> : > >> Braille. Usually I just type them in SimBraille font and
> then
> : > : >>>> feed it
> : > : >>>> : > >> through an embosser so that the dots become raised
> Braille,
> : > but
> : > : >>>> I need
> : > : >>>> : > to
> : > : >>>> : > >> be able to type in Nemeth Braille for this science course.
> : > Does
> : > : >>>> anyone
> : > : >>>> : > >> know
> : > : >>>> : > >> of a software program or font I can download that would
> allow
> : > : >>>> me to do
> : > : >>>> : > >> this?
> : > : >>>> : > >>
> : > : >>>> : > >> Thank you,
> : > : >>>> : > >>
> : > : >>>> : > >> Gabriela
> : > : >>>> : > >>
> : > : >>>> : > >> --
> : > : >>>> : > >> Gabriela Echavarría Moats
> : > : >>>> : > >> Special Assignment Coordinator of Accommodations
> : > : >>>> : > >> Office of Disabilities Services
> : > : >>>> : > >> Haverford College
> : > : >>>> : > >> Stokes Hall 118F
> : > : >>>> : > >> gmoats at haverford.edu
> : > : >>>> : > >> _______________________________________________
> : > : >>>> : > >> Blindmath mailing list
> : > : >>>> : > >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> : > : >>>> : > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> : > : >>>> : > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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> : > : >>>> info for
> : > : >>>> : > >> Blindmath:
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> : > : >>>> : > >>
> : > : >>>> : >
> : > : >>>>
> : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/soneill1%40have
> : > : >>>> rford.edu
> : > : >>>> : > >>
> : > : >>>> : > > _______________________________________________
> : > : >>>> : > > Blindmath mailing list
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> : > : >>>>
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> : > : >>>> gmail.com
> : > : >>>> : > >
> : > : >>>> : >
> : > : >>>> : > _______________________________________________
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> : > : >>>> : >
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> : > : >>>>
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> : > : >>>> net
> : > : >>>> :
> : > : >>>>
> : > : >>>>
> : > : >>>> _______________________________________________
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> : > : >>>>
> : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sabra1023%40gma
> : > : >>>> il.com
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>> _______________________________________________
> : > : >>> Blindmath mailing list
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> : > Blindmath:
> : > : >>>
> : >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mrspock56%40hotmail.com
> : > : >>
> : > : >> _______________________________________________
> : > : >> Blindmath mailing list
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> for
> : > Blindmath:
> : > : >>
> : >
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> : > : > _______________________________________________
> : > : > Blindmath mailing list
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> : > Blindmath:
> : > : >
> : >
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> : > :
> : > :
> : > :
> : > : _______________________________________________
> : > : Blindmath mailing list
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> : > :
> : >
> : >
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> :
> : --
> : ---
> : John G. Heim, 608-263-4189, jheim at math.wisc.edu
> :
> : _______________________________________________
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-- 
---
John G. Heim, 608-263-4189, jheim at math.wisc.edu