[Blindmath] books in accessible format
I. C. Bray
i.c.bray at win.net
Mon Sep 16 18:19:04 UTC 2013
John,
What I am getting at is not easilly said concisely
BasicalllyBasically, it should be a for profit Message ----- organization
who's mission is to provide a facility that employs blind, vision impaired,
and sighted individuals to do standardization of accessibil materials for
any and all other companies such as Text Book Publishers, Electronics
Manufacturers, and any other "group" that wishes to produce accessible
options for it's customers.
Rather than have every company attempt to make their products accessible,
have the NFBPublishing company a "partner" to get it done.
The only criticism I have about APH is that they typically don't do
extreemely up to date texts. I find the majority of the products to be
rather expensive... and being on fixed income makes that prohibitive.
Instead of reinventing the weel, we make whatever wheel is needed and ship
it to the customer.
Ian
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] books in accessible format
: I'm unclear on one thing though. Don't you think Learnng Ally would love
: to be the company you describe below only it's just not that easy?
: Learning Ally is a non-profit so maybe you're thinking a for-profit
: company would be more effective? I'm not disputing that. I don't know.
: I'm just not clear on what you are getting at.
:
: I wish I knew more about this stuff. All I know is from what I read on
: this list. There seems to be a lot of people working in different
: directions. That seems to be the case in everything from non-profits to
: software. I am not aware of any actual duplicate projects but there
: does seem to be a lot of overlap in all aspects of this problem. And it
: seems extremely difficult to get an understanding as to how all the
: pieces fit together.
:
:
: On 09/16/13 10:18, I. C. Bray wrote:
: > NO, I'm not talking about for end-consumers.
: > I'm talking about products & vendors who are required to release items,
: > publications, and electronics etc.
: > Instead of each individual company like Sony, Motorola, and perhaps
Software
: > Developers...
: > The NFB-Publishing would be given printed materials or PDFs or would be
: > responsible for reviewing a company's websites, and whatever else for
: > functionality.
: >
: > Example:
: > Let's say MathWorks produces a new Calculus book.
: > Instead of them publishing the hardback text only, they release
preliminary,
: > intermediate, and final drafts along with errata to my hypothetical
: > publishing company.
: > Since by law, everything published for sighted people should be
available
: > reasonably for blind people, NFBPublishing would either OCR-Tag PDF
copies,
: > have them recorded in audio and get them published into braille or just
BRF
: > formats.
: >
: > Then, Since the Publishing Company is producing the material, and we
have
: > the means, technology, and the appropriate understanding of what is best
: > needed, we do it all.
: > When a blind customer requires a full text in braille, then the customer
: > pays for the textbook as normal, takes the ADA Card and Receipt from the
: > book and submits it to the publisher or whatever, and then the
: > Publisher/owner exchanges the Print book for the Accessible Version, or
the
: > customer pays a small fee to keep the print copy and receives the other
too.
: >
: >
: > Then NFB Publishing could manage textbook Exchanges, and there would not
be
: > a huge need to print thousands of coppies, but the cost of publishing
ANY
: > book is spread out to any and all purchases of the book thus making it
: > easier on people like Me, Tami, and others to buy our Physics & Linear
: > Analysis texts at a REASONABLE cost instead of the $75000 per...
: >
: > Please do realize... this is just a brainstorming exercise here... I'm
: > thinking out loud and just seeing what others think too...
: >
: > The idea that I want/need a book in braille and it's nearly impossible
to
: > find, and so costly to produce is silly.
: >
: > Often, hours upon hours of time from various Disability Resource Centers
is
: > eaten up by producing an odd copy or two of accessible material for only
a
: > small number of students... if those hours were freed-up and the texts
ALL
: > managed throughout the publishing process, and a small number published
: > centrally... I'm just thinking it might work!!
: >
: > Ian
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > ----- Original Message -----
: > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
: > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
: > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
: > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 9:25 AM
: > Subject: [Blindmath] books in accessible format (was: Typing in
: > NemethBraille)
: >
: >
: > : Do you know about Learning Ally and Bookshare? The company you
describe
: > : doesn't sound very different from Learning Ally and some of what
: > : Bookshare does would overlap as well. I let my Learning Ally
membership
: > : expire 20 years ago. It was calledRFBD back then. But they used to
send
: > : me textbooks in a digital format on diskette. So they might have
worked
: > : out the whole mathematical symbol thing by now. But I wouldn't know.
: > : Bookshare operates under an exception in United States copyright law.
So
: > : they don't have everything and not everything they have is available
: > : internationally. Even so, it would probably be a lot easier to with
one
: > : of these organizations to tweak their existing infrastructure rather
: > : than start from scratch on your own.
: > :
: > :
: > : On 09/16/13 03:38, I. C. Bray wrote:
: > : > Michael,
: > : >
: > : > Is there any means by which NFB members could join together and form
a
: > : > publishing company whereby we accept materials and products and
produce
: > the
: > : > accessible materials for the originating manufacturers?
: > : > As an example, Say NFB-Media were to either hire or contract
: > organizations
: > : > who already produce accessible materials specifically for the blind
and
: > : > would be paid by the Manufacturers for doing it for them?
: > : > This way, we the blind consumers are directly producing what we
need.
: > Our
: > : > own standards of accessability are met, Companies are given proven,
: > : > accessible materials to distribute as needed, and the NFB-Publishing
are
: > : > granted royalty for the distribution of said working / proven
materials,
: > and
: > : > Manufacturers are able to concentrate on the functionality while we
: > make
: > : > sure to communicate it appropriately.
: > : >
: > : > I mean, perhaps I am dreaming here, but is that really too much to
: > manage?
: > : >
: > : > Rather than constantly be inopposition, be an active means to a
: > solution.
: > : >
: > : > Ok... now... discuss.
: > : >
: > : > Respectfully,
: > : > Ian C. Bray
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > ----- Original Message -----
: > : > From: "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples at aim.com>
: > : > To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
: > : > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
: > : > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:45 AM
: > : > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > :I am not sure I want to encourage just debate about why, after all
: > : > : action would be better.
: > : > :
: > : > : One thing which is slightly shocking, certainly concerning is that
the
: > : > : Coalition of e-reader manufacturers have sought a waiver from the
FCC
: > to
: > : > : be exempt from the accessibility requirements of the
Communications
: > and
: > : > : Video Accessibility Act (http://techpolicy.acm.org/blog/?p=3177).
I
: > : > : think we can all draw conclusions from this...
: > : > :
: > : > : I understand various organisations, including the NFB, have
provided
: > : > : comments to the FCC.
: > : > :
: > : > : We all need to appreciate that math accessibility for the blind is
: > : > : normally only a small concern out of many for any individual
company
: > : > : involved in making technical documents accessible and that for a
good
: > : > : solution it will require multiple companies to cooperate. As an
: > example,
: > : > : just to read a PDF on your computer, it requires the PDF reader
(eg.
: > : > : Adobe reader) to be made accessible, but that will require
suitable
: > : > : support in the accessibility API of the platform it is run on
(most
: > : > : likely Windows, so some support from Microsoft), and then the
screen
: > : > : reader would need to support the math accessibility, and then this
all
: > : > : will only work if the provider of the PDF document actually
bothers to
: > : > : tag the document suitably. This is not to say math accessibility
is
: > not
: > : > : important, but rather its not necessarily at the top of their
lists of
: > : > : priorities and we all probably have a responsibility to remind
them
: > that
: > : > : math accessibility is important and that it might be a deciding
factor
: > : > : in your purchasing of software.
: > : > :
: > : > : May be as individuals we might have little affect, but if colleges
and
: > : > : universities are faced with needing to make their courses
accessible
: > to
: > : > : us as individuals, then their purchasing decisions may be affected
and
: > : > : then that might be something significant to some of these
: > : > : manufacturers/publishers.
: > : > :
: > : > : Michael Whapples
: > : > : On 16/09/2013 00:06, sabra1023 wrote:
: > : > : > These books can be made accessible in a digital format for a lot
: > cheaper
: > : > then a hardcopy transcription, and maybe the publishers even have it
the
: > : > books and an accessible format. However, if you try to get the book
: > : > digitally from them, they will give you a PDF, which you cannot
fully
: > : > access. I think that we are having these access issues because a big
: > portion
: > : > of the cited population believes that blind people have no right to
: > expect
: > : > success and Matt. I keep hearing all the time that math is just too
: > visual
: > : > and that the best blind people can expect is to learn basic algebra,
but
: > my
: > : > experience with Matt has shown me that math and itself isn't visual.
: > Sighted
: > : > people might feel the most comfortable with a visual representation,
but
: > : > that in no way means the subject itself is visual. Also, I've known
: > plenty
: > : > of blind people who went way past calculus and use their skills in
: > : > engineering and computer science. If publishers thought about
: > accessibility
: > : > from the beginning, it wouldn't be extremely difficult or costly to
make
: > : > sure that blind people as well as other populations can have access
to
: > math
: > : > electronic text.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > On Sep 15, 2013, at 11:49 AM, Mike Jolls <mrspock56 at hotmail.com>
: > wrote:
: > : > : >
: > : > : >> Does your software also back-translate it from Nemeth back to
: > standard
: > : > English so that a teacher can get the completed homework from the
: > student,
: > : > open it up inWord or some other standard application, and read it in
: > symbols
: > : > they understand as a sighted person?
: > : > : >>
: > : > : >>
: > : > : >>> From: pmw at mega-data.com
: > : > : >>> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
: > : > : >>> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 12:20:59 -0400
: > : > : >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
: > : > : >>>
: > : > : >>> Getting the diagrams in tactile form (using encapsulated
"swell"
: > : > paper) is a great help in math. I have prepared tactile diagrams
for
: > : > several VI students that I work with, and they have found the
diagrams
: > to be
: > : > extremely helpful. I put a small amount of Braille on the diagrams
: > (just
: > : > enough to be able to create a separate legend with more information
: > about
: > : > the diagram).
: > : > : >>>
: > : > : >>> Re writing your math homework: I am currently working on some
: > : > software that would allow you to create and edit your math homework
in
: > : > Nemeth Braille. It's not quite ready for testing yet, however. I
will
: > make
: > : > an announcement when it is ready, because I will be looking for
students
: > in
: > : > math or math-intensive science courses to test this software.
: > : > : >>>
: > : > : >>>
: > : > : >>> -----Original Message-----
: > : > : >>> From: sabra1023 [mailto:sabra1023 at gmail.com]
: > : > : >>> Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 2:18 AM
: > : > : >>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
: > : > : >>> Cc: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
: > : > : >>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
: > : > : >>>
: > : > : >>> All I know is that I write my math homework in Microsoft Word.
I
: > have
: > : > to be reading with a braille display, and everything needs to be
linear,
: > not
: > : > multidimensional. Also, my brain can't think correctly if I have to
work
: > : > from right to left. I don't know if those math needs are common
among
: > blind
: > : > people, but you could try them to see if it helps. Oh, and another
thing
: > is
: > : > that it might help to get text descriptions of diagrams and
represent
: > things
: > : > algebraically rather then graphically as much as possible.
: > : > : >>>
: > : > : >>> On Sep 15, 2013, at 1:03 AM, "I. C. Bray" <i.c.bray at win.net>
: > wrote:
: > : > : >>>
: > : > : >>>> Neil,
: > : > : >>>> Well, I am going to need to use something, and I have been
: > putting
: > : > off
: > : > : >>>> deciding until I get some idea what's out there and what
makes
: > sence
: > : > for me.
: > : > : >>>> I don't want to have to learn 5 new programs and try to keep
the
: > : > : >>>> command & control sets seperate...
: > : > : >>>> I've been reading the BlindMath ListServ and hearing the
: > difficulties
: > : > : >>>> and am just hoping I collect enough info and various ways to
: > approach
: > : > : >>>> my own Math, Science, and Teaching needs now that I'm blind.
: > : > : >>>>
: > : > : >>>> OH, Side note question.
: > : > : >>>> Is the Blind Science listserv not active?? I Joined the
list,
: > and do
: > : > : >>>> not think I got any replies...
: > : > : >>>>
: > : > : >>>> Ian
: > : > : >>>> ----- Original Message -----
: > : > : >>>> From: "Neil Soiffer" <NeilS at dessci.com>
: > : > : >>>> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
: > : > : >>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
: > : > : >>>> Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 1:52 AM
: > : > : >>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Typing in Nemeth Braille
: > : > : >>>>
: > : > : >>>>
: > : > : >>>> : You can also use MathType with Word and then use Duxbury to
: > : > : >>>> translate to
: > : > : >>>> : Nemeth. Like Scientific notebook, with MathType you just
type
: > the
: > : > : >>>> math in
: > : > : >>>> : using an easy math editor. If you are a familiar with Word,
it
: > is
: > : > : >>>> probably
: > : > : >>>> : a better option than getting Scientific Notebook and having
to
: > : > learn that.
: > : > : >>>> : MathType is just a math editor and so is a lot cheaper than
: > : > : >>>> Scientific
: > : > : >>>> : notebook. Your school might already have a site license
[full
: > : > disclosure:
: > : > : >>>> : my company makes MathType]
: > : > : >>>> :
: > : > : >>>> : Neil Soiffer
: > : > : >>>> : Senior Scientist
: > : > : >>>> : Design Science, Inc.
: > : > : >>>> : www.dessci.com
: > : > : >>>> : ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy,
Equation
: > : > : >>>> Editor ~
: > : > : >>>> :
: > : > : >>>> :
: > : > : >>>> :
: > : > : >>>> : On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Allan Mesoga
: > : > : >>>> <allan.mesoga at gmail.com>wrote:
: > : > : >>>> :
: > : > : >>>> : > You can also use scientific notebook and save it as latex
and
: > : > open
: > : > : >>>> it
: > : > : >>>> : > using duxbury then translate.
: > : > : >>>> : >
: > : > : >>>> : > On 9/10/13, Sharon O'Neill <soneill1 at haverford.edu>
wrote:
: > : > : >>>> : > > Hi Gabriela: were you able to find an answer to the
Nemeth
: > : > : >>>> Braille
: > : > : >>>> : > > software question? I see they directed you to the
fellow
: > that
: > : > : >>>> has
: > : > : >>>> : > revamped
: > : > : >>>> : > > the nfbnet list for blindmath. Were you able to
contact
: > him?
: > : > : >>>> : > >
: > : > : >>>> : > > I would be very interested in what he suggested.
: > : > : >>>> : > >
: > : > : >>>> : > > Regards,
: > : > : >>>> : > >
: > : > : >>>> : > > Sheri
: > : > : >>>> : > >
: > : > : >>>> : > >
: > : > : >>>> : > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Gabriela Moats
: > : > : >>>> <gmoats at haverford.edu>
: > : > : >>>> : > > wrote:
: > : > : >>>> : > >
: > : > : >>>> : > >> Hi all,
: > : > : >>>> : > >> I need to make raised tactile images that contain
labels
: > with
: > : > : >>>> math
: > : > : >>>> : > >> symbols for a blind student and he would like them to
be
: > typed
: > : > : >>>> in Nemeth
: > : > : >>>> : > >> Braille. Usually I just type them in SimBraille font
and
: > then
: > : > : >>>> feed it
: > : > : >>>> : > >> through an embosser so that the dots become raised
: > Braille,
: > : > but
: > : > : >>>> I need
: > : > : >>>> : > to
: > : > : >>>> : > >> be able to type in Nemeth Braille for this science
course.
: > : > Does
: > : > : >>>> anyone
: > : > : >>>> : > >> know
: > : > : >>>> : > >> of a software program or font I can download that
would
: > allow
: > : > : >>>> me to do
: > : > : >>>> : > >> this?
: > : > : >>>> : > >>
: > : > : >>>> : > >> Thank you,
: > : > : >>>> : > >>
: > : > : >>>> : > >> Gabriela
: > : > : >>>> : > >>
: > : > : >>>> : > >> --
: > : > : >>>> : > >> Gabriela Echavarría Moats
: > : > : >>>> : > >> Special Assignment Coordinator of Accommodations
: > : > : >>>> : > >> Office of Disabilities Services
: > : > : >>>> : > >> Haverford College
: > : > : >>>> : > >> Stokes Hall 118F
: > : > : >>>> : > >> gmoats at haverford.edu
: > : > : >>>> : > >> _______________________________________________
: > : > : >>>> : > >> Blindmath mailing list
: > : > : >>>> : > >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
: > : > : >>>> : > >>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
: > : > : >>>> : > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
: > account
: > : > : >>>> info for
:> : > : >>>> : > >> Blindmath:
: > : > : >>>> : > >>
: > : > : >>>> : > >>
: > : > : >>>> : >
: > : > : >>>>
: > : >
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/soneill1%40have
: > : > : >>>> rford.edu
: > : > : >>>> : > >>
: > : > : >>>> : > > _______________________________________________
: > : > : >>>> : > > Blindmath mailing list
: > : > : >>>> : > > Blindmath at nfbnet.org
: > : > : >>>> : > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
: > : > : >>>> : > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
: > account
: > : > : >>>> info for
: > : > : >>>> : > > Blindmath:
: > : > : >>>> : > >
: > : > : >>>> : >
: > : > : >>>>
: > : >
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/allan.mesoga%40
: > : > : >>>> gmail.com
: > : > : >>>> : > >
: > : > : >>>> : >
: > : > : >>>> : > _______________________________________________
: > : > : >>>> : > Blindmath mailing list
: > : > : >>>> : > Blindmath at nfbnet.org
: > : > : >>>> : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
: > : > : >>>> : > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
account
: > info
: > : > : >>>> for
: > : > : >>>> : > Blindmath:
: > : > : >>>> : >
: > : > : >>>>
: > : >
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/neils%40dessci.
: > : > : >>>> com
: > : > : >>>> : >
: > : > : >>>> : _______________________________________________
: > : > : >>>> : Blindmath mailing list
: > : > : >>>> : Blindmath at nfbnet.org
: > : > : >>>> : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
: > : > : >>>> : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
account
: > info
: > : > : >>>> for
: > : > : >>>> Blindmath:
: > : > : >>>> :
: > : > : >>>>
: > : >
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.
: > : > : >>>> net
: > : > : >>>> :
: > : > : >>>>
: > : > : >>>>
: > : > : >>>> _______________________________________________
: > : > : >>>> Blindmath mailing list
: > : > : >>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
: > : > : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
: > : > : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info
: > for
: > : > Blindmath:
: > : > : >>>>
: > : >
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sabra1023%40gma
: > : > : >>>> il.com
: > : > : >>>
: > : > : >>>
: > : > : >>>
: > : > : >>> _______________________________________________
: > : > : >>> Blindmath mailing list
: > : > : >>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
: > : > : >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
: > : > : >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info
: > for
: > : > Blindmath:
: > : > : >>>
: > : >
: >
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mrspock56%40hotmail.com
: > : > : >>
: > : > : >> _______________________________________________
: > : > : >> Blindmath mailing list
: > : > : >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
: > : > : >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
: > : > : >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info
: > for
: > : > Blindmath:
: > : > : >>
: > : >
: >
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/sabra1023%40gmail.com
: > : > : > _______________________________________________
: > : > : > Blindmath mailing list
: > : > : > Blindmath at nfbnet.org
: > : > : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
: > : > : > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info
: > for
: > : > Blindmath:
: > : > : >
: > : >
: >
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/mwhapples%40aim.com
: > : > :
: > : > :
: > : > :
: > : > : _______________________________________________
: > : > : Blindmath mailing list
: > : > : Blindmath at nfbnet.org
: > : > : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
: > : > : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
: > : > Blindmath:
: > : > :
: >
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net
: > : > :
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > _______________________________________________
: > : > Blindmath mailing list
: > : > Blindmath at nfbnet.org
: > : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
: > : > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
: > Blindmath:
: > : >
: >
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
: > : >
: > :
: > : --
: > : ---
: > : John G. Heim, 608-263-4189, jheim at math.wisc.edu
: > :
: > : _______________________________________________
: > : Blindmath mailing list
: > : Blindmath at nfbnet.org
: > : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
: > : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
: > Blindmath:
: > :
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net
: > :
: >
: >
: > _______________________________________________
: > Blindmath mailing list
: > Blindmath at nfbnet.org
: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
: > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Blindmath:
: >
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: >
:
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: John G. Heim, 608-263-4189, jheim at math.wisc.edu
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