[Blindmath] [Blind math] Spatial Abilities

Thu Jun 5 22:04:40 UTC 2014

Ms. O, Your blind friend who can interpret drawings of 3D objects, is 
she blind from birth? My hypothesis is that visual experience is 
required to interpret most of these kinds of drawings since the only 
blind people I've ever heard of who could do this once had vision.

Amanda Lacy

On 6/5/2014 4:54 PM, Susan Osterhaus via Blindmath wrote:
> I am one of those sighted individuals who has always had difficulty
> transforming a 2-dimensional drawing of a 3-dimensional object into the
> 3-D object in my mind. I prefer making the 3-D object. I have a blind
> friend who has no difficulties conceptualizing a 3-dimensional object from
> a tactile 2-dimensional drawing. Her husband, who is blind, is more like
> me - has difficulties. They have two sighted children. One can do it
> easily; one has great difficulty.
>
> When I was doing my student teaching in mathematics to sighted students
> years ago, I taught geometry, and I was affectionately known as the
> "tinker toy lady" because I always created the 3-D objects which I thought
> were necessary for understanding the day's concept. The majority of my
> students actually thought this was pretty cool and paid attention!! Of
> course, now I have a much better collection of 3-D math toys that I use to
> teach all students - blind or sighted. I still get sighted observers who
> exclaim that they finally understood a particular concept when they
> watched me use my various manipulatives. They demand to know why their
> sighted math teachers didn't "do it" that way.
>
> A possibly related story: When asked, most people will say that they are
> better at either algebra or geometry but not both. The "geometry" lovers
> are usually quite good with this whole spatial thing, while the "algebra"
> lovers are not. Of course I am the algebra-type, and I always wondered why
> they decided I should teach geometry for my student teaching. It didn't
> stop there. I have had to teach geometry (as well as all the other math
> subjects) all my life, and believe it or not, most people seem to think
> I'm very good at it. I also have more geometry math toys than anything
> else. It just shows what the right accommodations can do for someone.
>
> Bottom Line: I think someone needs to do some research to find out about
> this "spatial" thing. Anyone looking for a good dissertation topic?
>
> Best wishes,
> Susan O
>
> Susan A Osterhaus
> Statewide Mathematics Consultant
> Outreach Programs
> Texas School for the Blind
>    And Visually Impaired
> 1100 West 45th Street
> Austin, TX 78756
> Email: susanosterhaus at tsbvi.edu
> Phone: 512-206-9305
> Website: www.tsbvi.edu/math
> Distance Learning: http://distance.tsbvi.edu/osterhaus_math_intro.html
> Media Library: http://library.tsbvi.edu/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> Jolls via Blindmath
> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 1:39 PM
> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] [Blind math] Spatial Abilities
>
> I find your comment very interesting ... that some blind people (and
> perhaps some not) can pack a pack a paper bag without having vision.  I
> ought to show this email to my daughter in-law to see what she has to say
> ... who once told me when I told her I was interested in developing a
> computer pgoram that would allow blind people to interactively work with
> math equations in Braille ...
> "how could a blind person do math when they can't see?".    I don't need
> to say that when she made that comment, I got just slightly irritated.
> I've seen this bias many times in my lifetime.  They need to be shown that
> we just have difficult seeing ... we're not stupid.
>
>> To: arielle71 at gmail.com; blindmath at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 08:03:29 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] [Blind math] Spatial Abilities
>> From: blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>
>> I am not sure this is a blind thing.  When I was sighted back in the
>> day we used paper bags at the grocery.  I used to train baggers.  I
>> would say it was almost a 50 50 shot that the people I trained could
>> look at what was on the counter and be able to quickly and easily pack
>> groceries in the least amount of bags, taking into account shape, and
>> type of groceries.  TI have found over the years that the same people
>> that couldn't pack a paper bag correctly also couldn't look at a pile
>> of luggage and figure out how to fit it in the trunk without trying 15
>> times.  Now that I am blind and have been for the last 20 years I
>> haven't found it any harder.  I do have my previous sighted experience
>> and training but I have met as many blind people that understand
>> special areas as well as me.  As I have met that are totally unable to
>> walk through a building that they have worked in for over 2 years.  So
>> in my experience and just in my humble opinion I think it has more to
>> do with how your experiences growing up allowed you to learn and maybe
> how your brain is genetically wired than anything to do with site.
>> It would be interesting to do a study with the old square paper bags
>> and a table full of stuff.  To see how different blind people could
>> look over a table of objects and be able to pack them verses a  group of
> sighted folks.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Arielle Silverman via Blindmath
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 7:48 PM
>> To: sabra1023; Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Spatial Abilities
>>
>> This is a really interesting question. I have been blind since birth
>> and have always had excellent verbal and quantitative skills, and
>> reasonable grasp of cardinal directions, but my spatial sense is very
>> poor. For example, when moving furniture or packing a moving truck, I
>> have no idea how things should be arranged. I feel I am at a
>> disadvantage because I can only touch or explore a large space a
>> little at a time, whereas a sighted person can see the whole thing at
>> once. This is a bit of a different problem from the 2 vs.
>> 3-dimensional issue (although I also have trouble decoding raised
>> diagrams especially those with complex shapes). I can mental-map a
>> space easily if it's a standard square or rectangular block, but have
>> a lot of trouble mental-mapping a room or building that's irregularly
>> shaped in any way. I have met several blind people who don't have the
>> same degree of difficulty as I do, however, so I am hesitant to blame
>> it wholly on blindness. That's why I am curious to hear what other
>> congenitally blind people experience. I do think growing up I was
>> never expected to engage spatially with the world and I wasn't as
>> tactually inquisitive as some blind kids, so my spatial development
>> might have been hampered. For me there's little connection between
>> mathematical relationships between numbers and their graphical
>> analogs, which is why my math ability doesn't suffer from my spatial
>> impairment.
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 5/28/14, sabra1023 via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Just because someone uses three-dimensional objects doesn't mean
>>> that
>> they
>>> have a low spatial intelligence necessarily. I believe that for
>>> spatial
>> IQ
>>> tests for the blind, it is best practice to use three-dimensional
>> objects.
>>>> On May 28, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Amanda Lacy <lacy925 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think it has to do with the fact that those of us who are blind
>>>> from birth don't experience the world as being flat. Sight involves
>>>> the projection of light onto a flat retina, so for sighted people
>>>> it seems natural to go from there to representing real things on flat
> surfaces.
>>>> Flat pictures are everywhere for them since birth, but I can't
>>>> think of one single example of anything in the real world that's
>>>> flat. Our hands are designed to grasp and rotate and examine real
>>>> objects, and then we come to school and have to learn what seems
>>>> like a new language. So when people say that my hands are like
>>>> their eyes, I have to disagree. I'm speculating as someone who has
>>>> never been sighted, so any of you can
>> feel
>>>> free to correct me with more accurate information.
>>>>
>>>> Amanda
>>>>> On 5/28/2014 12:46 PM, sabra1023 via Blindmath wrote:
>>>>> I wonder if being blind from birth has to do with it. If I'm
>> remembering
>>>>> how to get somewhere, I just imagine myself walking there. A map
>> doesn't
>>>>> help. I can imagine three-dimensional things very well and make
>>>>> them
>> out
>>>>> of clay. Also, I can remember a two dimensional shape like a
>>>>> circle or square. However, it's difficult for me to imagine and
>>>>> manipulate graphs in my head.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 28, 2014, at 12:07 PM, Susan Jolly via Blindmath
>>>>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There have been a large number of conferences about and studies
>>>>>> of the use of tactile maps and diagrams by blind persons.  This
>>>>>> has been
>> going
>>>>>> on for more than 40 years.  What I got out of reading many of the
>>>>>> studies is that different people are different.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is, however, a lot of evidence that men have better spatial
>>>>>> abilities than women.  I know this is controversial but I think
>>>>>> there
>> is
>>>>>> some truth to it.  I can see the sun come up east of my house and
>>>>>> go down west of my house.  Nonetheless, no matter how hard I try,
>>>>>> I
>> cannot
>>>>>> imagine that my son who lives 1000 miles west of me lives in the
>>>>>> direction where the sun goes down.  I know that it is true
>>>>>> logically
>> but
>>>>>> when I think about him, he's always somewhere off to the east in
>>>>>> my mind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for graphs, it took me years to understand why it is not
>>>>>> necessary when laying out a two-dimensional graph to use the same
>>>>>> spacing for
>> both
>>>>>> axes.  I mention this here for two reasons.  First, it is an
>>>>>> example
>> of
>>>>>> different people being different.  Second, it points out that the
>> shape
>>>>>> of a graph is to some extent arbitrary.  Of course, the general
>>>>>> shape
>> is
>>>>>> independent of the exact choice of layout. (I'm talking about
>>>>>> linear axes; you can dramatically change the shape if you use
>>>>>> non-linear axes such as logarithmic ones.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SusanJ
>>>>>>
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