[Blindmath] how did your TVIs assist you?

Jonathon Yaggie jyaggi2 at uic.edu
Tue Dec 1 00:59:27 UTC 2015 

I have been opting out of this conversation, because I am knee-deep in
postdoc applications.  However, after reading Sarah's comments, I would
like to second her thoughts regarding career/educational planning.

I am on the boarder of being legally blind; therefore, I am fairly high
functioning.  With that said, low expectations by educators including my
TVI were disheartening at the least.  All my aptitude tests were consistent
- I should be a scientist or researcher.  Yet my TVI refused to see me
after age 15, I did not show appreciation for her talking down to me.  Her
primary focus before that had been   "assignments", most of which were
essays on how I could better integrate with "normal" students.   Academics
were next considered or discussed.  I had not academic accommodations until
college.  That is not to say I did not have an IEP, simply that the only
thing on it was that I see a social worker.

With hindsight, I should have pursued medical research.  However, this was
not even considered an option.   Also i realize now, we do a disservice to
many students both sighted and visually impaired, by having low
expectations.  My son who has the same condition, complains endlessly about
my high expectations.  :)



Jon Yaggie
UIC Mathematics
Expanding Your Horizons Chicago Coordinator
Keep up with EYH Chicago on Facebook
<https://www.facebook.com/ExpandingYourHorizonsChicago> and Twitter
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On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 6:40 PM, Sarah Jevnikar via Blindmath <
blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> This is an interesting discussion topic.
>
> My TVI in high school did the following for me:
> - find titles of texts prior to my taking the relevant courses and ordering
> them
> - create Braille handouts and tests with diagrams as needed (usually with
> fabric paint)
> - transcribe my tests orally as I Brailled them in Nemeth and she couldn't
> read it
>
> I went into first year without knowing how much I needed to do myself: pick
> courses early enough to order textbooks early enough so they could be
> transcribed; order them once instructors gave me their info (which could be
> slow in coming); translate my homework from Nemeth to text (I use Nemetex
> as
> needed but probably should learn LaTeX but struggle with the confusing
> literature). Fortunately I had contacts who could help with Brailling tests
> and diagrams for those tests, but otherwise I would have been out of luck.
> I
> still don't get tactile diagrams unless I ask a classmate, teaching
> assistant or instructor to help make them. Thankfully I was used to
> transcribing tests orally when software failed or wasn't available.
>
> The trick is too that in high school, no student has to find their own
> texts
> or reading materials. So all students face that hurdle. But blind students
> have greater difficulty in the sense that the readings they need must be
> scanned and hopefully are readable at that point. It's a lengthy process
> and
> I still don't have a good solution.
>
> I might point out too that my choice of university program was dictated by
> the accommodations I thought I could get. I might have studied biology but
> feared the lab setting as a totlally blind student.
>
> In short, I would encourage every TVI to try to get their students to think
> about what they want to do as a career, then help them plan for it.
> Biology?
> Sure! Just talk to someone at a local university to get ideas for
> accommodations well in advance. Have students do as much as they can
> without
> TVI assistance - in the university and real world settings they'll have
> advocates perhaps, but not anyone to help with the day-to-day aspects of
> their education, unless they're able to get funding to pay them.
>
> I hope this made some sense,
> Sarah
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amanda
> Lacy via Blindmath
> Sent: November-30-15 6:38 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Cc: Amanda Lacy
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] how did your TVIs assist you?
>
> I want a job so that everything will stop changing every semester. I intend
> to work as a programmer, doing I have no idea what. Apparently I was
> supposed to explore that in school, but I've learned not to explore in
> school.
>
> Several people tell me to avoid environments like agile programming since
> for the most part I can't work in groups. I'm now aware of some things to
> avoid, but not the things I should look for.
>
> Amanda
>
> On 11/30/15, Vincent Martin via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > I, along with other friends,  actually have had much better
> > accessibility in the private sector!  I am fifty-one years old and my
> > Ph.D is my fifth different STEM degree.  I have had many, many, jobs
> > in the private sector, state and local government, the Federal
> > government, and as a private consultant.  The private sector normally
> > understands accessibility better and lawsuits are much more damaging
> > to a private corporation.  I can say this from the fact that I also
> > have served as an expert witness in fourteen cases so far.  The worst
> > offenders have been schools and the Federal "Government.  I also serve
> > as an accessibility consultant for companies and accessibility is a
> > really hot topic right now.  I make $2100 a month as a graduate
> > research assistant and made three times that amount last year
> > assisting "private" companies on making systems and jobs as accessible
> > as possible.  I literally worked two total weeks during the breaks
> > from my semesters on these projects.  One client who can't be named is
> > very good at accommodating its employees as they age as a middle-level
> > manger that leaves to early retirement takes about a million dollars
> > out the door in institutional knowledge.  Their biggest problem (they
> > are a Fortune 200
> > company) is getting people to self-disclose their disability.  When I
> > showed them back in 2004 how much money they were losing to lost
> > productivity to hidden disabilities, they were floored.  They have
> > spent over ten years attempting to keep their employees and to hire
> > qualified employees with disabilities.  In 2005, I convinced them not
> > to start a customer service program for blind employees.  Instead,
> > they try to hire very qualified employs, disability or not, and then
> > provide them with the best support possible.
> >
> > That blind engineer that got her M.B.A. at Drexel lost her vision
> > while she was working for a private employer.  The State Voc Rehab
> > people were unable to solve her accessibility problem, but we blind
> > people did.  I, along with a Freedom Scientific tech support
> > specialist, solved the interface problem with her mainframe over the
> > phone.  She was re-hired and my research lab at the Veterans
> > Administration "stole" her from her.  She had a pain in the butt
> > getting all of her equipment, such as an oscilloscope that attached to
> > a computer.  The Feds said that it was not assistive technology,
> > because anyone could use it.  Our supervisor bought it  out of his
> > discretionary funds.  At both of her private sector jobs, the
> > assistive technology showed up even when she did not ask for it.  When
> > she left for the Feds, she hated to give up her Braille Note PK.  It,
> along with all types of devices would just be delivered out of the blue.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> > Jeremy via Blindmath
> > Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 3:43 PM
> > To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> > Cc: Jeremy
> > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] how did your TVIs assist you?
> >
> > While all this is great, what are these blind PhD students going to do
> > when they join the workforce and all these teams of individuals are no
> > longer available to insure accessibility of work related materials.
> > Believe me, you're not going to sick the government on your private
> sector
> employer.
> >
> > Now having left university life long ago, it is amazing to me how
> > different the real world really functions as opposed to the
> > pseudo-utopia in these educational institutions.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> > vincent martin via Blindmath
> > Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 12:03 PM
> > To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> > Cc: vincent martin
> > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] how did your TVIs assist you?
> >
> > Amanda,
> > I will get back to the TVI topic, but wanted to lend you an arm of
> support!
> > The way you expressed yourself is the way in which so many blind
> > students feel each and every quarter/semester.  Don't let your bad
> > experiences stop you from going further if you so desire.  I am sure
> > we can find a graduate program at a school that would gladly have and
> > accommodate you!  If a school starts to accommodate students and gets
> > ones that are successful, then they start expecting them to show up.
> > That has started to occur at North Carolina State where they have had
> > two blind Ph.D. students in Computer Science recently.  Maybe we can
> > start a list/database of schools that have done a good job of making
> > STEM related curriculum accessible.  That would be a great benefit to
> > students considering which schools to attend in the future.
> >
> > I am the first totally blind student in the history of Georgia Tech.
> > Although things were terrible when I got here as far as accessibility
> > is concerned, I have done whatever I can to open the doors to the ones
> > that follow me.  That included filing complaints with the Department
> > of Education.  Things got much better once the Feds showed up!  We
> > even have a new disability access policy that has been publically
> > circulated for open comment before it becomes standard institute
> > policy.  Last year I encountered a visually impaired student at the
> > Empowering Blind students in STEM workshop sponsored by DO-IT at the
> > University of Washington.  He was interested in the Ph.D. program in
> > Biomedical Engineering here.  He was accepted and enrolled this Fall and
> all of his documents are accessible!
> >
> > We now have a professional on campus who is responsible for making
> > sure our documents are converted into the format we need in a timely
> > manner.  PDF documents can be converted with OCR software to a
> > readable format either Word or .PDF  and she will even re-format
> > tables into readable formats.  We can get descriptions of images and
> > or tactile diagrams created.  Those are usually outsourced to AMAC
> > Accessible Solutions which is an organization based on campus that
> > makes content accessible to all colleges and universities in the state
> > system and has partner institutions all over the country.  I have seen
> > them get an entire college level Math book transcribed into Braille in
> > less than a month.  They now also convert documents into Math ML as
> > well.  I am getting two Statistics books converted right now.
> >
> > The network of people that you meet can also be of assistance,
> > depending upon the situation.  I was fortunate that my advisor was an
> > acquaintance of mine before I applied.  His lab does research into
> > assistive technology and the other students in the lab just help me
> > because it is the right thing to do.  One of them is the person that
> > created the descriptions for Zack at Mississippi state a few weeks
> > ago.  The others love to have me in a class with them as they know
> > that the PDF documents for studying will now be readable!  Sighted
> > students get crappy stuff (bad scan of a bad copy) and many now use the
> text to speech engine in Acrobat Reader to read their
> > materials. .   My fellow lab mates also created the first totally
> > accessible
> > fantasy football league just so I could play with them.  After using
> > up the ESPN seed grant, they did it as a side project and did anything
> > to make it relevant to our research goals.  We have had one
> > publication, one CSUN presentation, and two more current journal
> > submissions concerning the data collected from our projects and
> > studies.  These are the same people that know to ask me if I have a
> > text copy of any book that they are using for research.  They know
> > that many hundred page printed book on their desk is not nearly as
> > useful as the electronic one I have.  Sometimes, we have the print
> > book on the table next to a computer with the electronic one when we are
> writing papers and citing our references.
> >
> > It is a constant fight for most of us, but there Aare some schools
> > that do such a great job that is actually surprising.  I had a former
> > student just graduate from the M.B.A. program at Drexel as an almost
> > totally blind student and the school went out of their way to
> > accommodate her.  They even ended up contracting with a second company
> > to insure her Statistics and Economics books were accessible to her.
> > She got accessible .PDF's and tactile maps and graduated on time.  She
> > had completed a degree in Electrical Engineering when she was sighted,
> > but she says that the accommodations at Drexel, especially from her
> > professors, is what made her graduate program enjoyable.
> >
> > I spoke with a very low-vision TVI friend of mine yesterday that
> > wishes she had a student that was STEM interested or was at the level
> > that she had to provide some of the things we have been discussing.
> > She moves between six middle and high schools in our county and does
> > not have any of her students who have gotten past pre-Calculus.  The
> > higher functioning ones are usually low-vision and the rest stop at basic
> high school Math and Science.
> >
> > On the other hand, I have another TVI in a county North of Atlanta
> > that has assisted in making every STEM related course in high school
> accessible.
> > She
> > has seen students go on to the University of Georgia in Genetics and
> > to Duke, Emory, and Wake Forrest in other STEM related fields.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> > Amanda Lacy via Blindmath
> > Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 1:18 PM
> > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> > <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> > Cc: Amanda Lacy <lacy925 at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Blindmath] how did your TVIs assist you?
> >
> >> University ought to be enjoyable and not be like standing on a beach
> >> watching a tidal wave coming, especially for those that can't see it.
> >
> > But that's exactly how it is, at least for me. Just as I'm starting to
> > gain my balance again I'm knocked over by another wave. People are
> > telling me I should explore, have fun, and enjoy the challenge, but
> > all I have time for is survival. I experience no joy, not anymore.
> > Meanwhile, the sighted ones are all talking about what they want to
> > take next semester like it's some great adventure. It's always some
> > course I couldn't dream of taking because I can't read the textbooks.
> >
> > Yes, I'm fully aware of LaTeX. Usually I have to beg for it, and I
> > don't always get it. And y'all should see some of the barely-usable
> > LaTeX I've received. It wasn't much better than no LaTeX at all.
> >
> > There are also plenty of CS courses about graphics, but none about sound.
> > They poison everything with graphics.
> >
> > I'm graduating with a bachelors in CS in May, and I don't think I'm
> > ever going back.
> >
> > Sorry for the reality, guys.
> >
> > Amanda
> >
> > On 11/30/15, Godfrey, Jonathan via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I'd like all professionals in the business of helping students ask
> >> their former students what things they actively did that left them
> >> unprepared for university. This is not really covered by the
> >> questions posed in Maureen's message.
> >>
> >> All too often I am observing 18-20 year old blind people lack
> >> independence and confidence and therefore struggle at university. The
> >> support mechanisms they had on hand during high school are no longer
> >> there; the disability support systems are not ready to help them; and
> >> the educators they must work with have even less idea. The issues are
> >> even further compounded in the STEM fields where so many additional
> >> skills
> > are needed.
> >>
> >> In particular, I'd like to have seen more of the students I've come
> >> across gain experience preparing their own homework during high
> >> school so that they have experience before they get to university
> >> where there are so many other new things to have to deal with.
> >>
> >> University ought to be enjoyable and not be like standing on a beach
> >> watching a tidal wave coming, especially for those that can't see it.
> >>
> >> Jonathan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >> derek riemer via Blindmath
> >> Sent: Tuesday, 1 December 2015 5:41 a.m.
> >> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> >> Cc: derek riemer
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] how did your TVIs assist you?
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >> If your student is planning to pursue a stem degree, then introduce
> >> them to la tex a bit. They should learn it asap as a college student
> >> because many stem materials may be more accessible in la tex format.
> >> Also, ensure that they know nemeth braille. It is insane how many
> >> people I know don't know nemeth braille, and it is essential to have
> > tactile feedback of the math.
> >> Also, having them transcribe math to you as well as having them use a
> >> tool like nemetex will help them ensure they are prepared for the
> >> process of converting math in college. I don't know anyone in a
> >> college setting who can have a tvi or someone interline their
> >> homework. It is essential to learn how to verbally transcribe
> >> homework, especially in more complex courses. You can mostly survive
> >> calc 1 and 2 with a tool like nemetex, but in upper level courses
> >> such as linear algebra, I found it necessary to use paper with
> >> braille to even understand the material. Some of it is spacial enough
> >> that the tech isn't quite ready to present the math correctly. Also,
> >> without a transcriber to transcribe (verbally I read them what I
> >> wanted them to
> >> write) math in linear algebra, it meant at least 3 hours of typing
> >> out the matrices in la tex. This is compared to half an hour reading
> >> it to someone who was skilled at writing that level of math.
> >> Hth.
> >>
> >> On 11/30/2015 8:07 AM, Lewicki, Maureen via Blindmath wrote:
> >>> Good morning!  I am a TVI of some great and capable students. Would
> >>> you do me a favor? Could you reflect back on your high school years
> >>> and let me
> >>> know:
> >>>
> >>> Did you have a TVI supporting you?
> >>> What did he/she do to prepare you for college and career?
> >>> What do you regret the TVI did not do to prepare you?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for your input! My career is not long enough to make all my
> >>> own mistakes! I would rather learn from others' mistakes and
> strengths!!
> >>>
> >>> Maureen Murphy Lewicki
> >>> Teacher of the Visually Impaired
> >>> Bethlehem Central School District
> >>> Bethlehem High School
> >>> 700 Delaware Ave
> >>> Delmar, NY 12054
> >>> http://www.bethlehemschools.org<http://www.bethlehemschools.org/>
> >>> Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through
> >>> experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened,
> >>> ambition inspired, and success
> >>> achieved.<http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/30186.html> Helen
> >>> Keller
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Blindmath mailing list
> >>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>> for
> >>> Blindmath:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/derek.riemer%
> >>> 4
> >>> 0 colorado.edu BlindMath Gems can be found at
> >>> <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> -
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >>     Derek Riemer
> >>
> >>   * Department of computer science, third year undergraduate student.
> >>   * Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
> >>   * Open source enthusiast.
> >>   * Member of Bridge Cu
> >>   * Avid skiier.
> >>
> >> Websites:
> >> Honors portfolio <http://derekriemer.drupalgardens.com>
> >> Non-proffessional website.
> >> <http://derekriemer.pythonanywhere.com/personal>
> >> Awesome little hand built weather app that rocks!
> >> <http://derekriemer.pythonanywhere.com/weather>
> >>
> >> email me at derek.riemer at colorado.edu
> >> <mailto:derek.riemer at colorado.edu>
> >> Phone: (303) 906-2194
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blindmath mailing list
> >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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> >> Blindmath:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40
> >> m
> >> assey.ac.nz
> >> BlindMath Gems can be found at
> >> <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
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> >> l
> >> .com
> >> BlindMath Gems can be found at
> >> <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
> >>
> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
>
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