[Blindmath] Looking for a particular type of person to ask questions

[Tim in 't Veld]

Hi Sabra,
Yes I agree, tutoring works much better for me than traditional 
lectures. That's also why an interactive lecturing style (where I answer 
a lecturer's questions and then we effectively engage in a discussion) 
works that well for me I think.

If someone tells you "the airplane makes a triangle", he forces you to 
visualize that triangle (unless he gives you a tactile image). I can 
visualize a triangle to some extent, but just explaining the visuals 
probably won't make a blind student understand the issue better. It's a 
whole different way of thinking about a problem, I might understand the 
problem if the person explaining to me was taking the effort to really 
put what is happening in words rather than using the graphical metaphor. 
So like "the plane's lift counteracts the gravity and this keeps it in 
the air" rather than "there's an arrow under the plane and an arrow 
above the plane; the arrows have equal length and direction" (that 
latter statement is already more verbal than the way many sighted 
physicians would view this issue).

You seem to be saying you can grasp programming more easily than 
mathematics. That also applies to me. I think that's because programming 
can be viewed as a "conceptual linguistic" exercise where as mathematics 
is a symbolic exercise which requires me to have at least a two 
dimensional overview of the text. A programming language is linear and 
quite abstract by definition and doesn't involve 'strange symbols'. That 
goes much better with a linear working style than mathematical formulae. 
If I translate a mathematical formula into an imperative programming 
language, I'm essentially describing the problem in words or 
instructions if you will. The program tells me exactly what I need to do 
in a textual manner.

A good chess player has a mental image of his board and can essentially 
play blind. The only successful blind mathematicians are those whose 
skills are so good that they can work out problems in their head and 
have the motivation to put inordinate amounts of time into grasping a 
formula. I'm quite an effective programmer because I have a mental 
overview of my program. When something goes wrong, I can quickly recall 
the bits of code which could cause the issue and do a focused 
investigation. In general I quickly link issues to one another, an 
essential skill when debugging code (but maybe also keeping me from 
having the necessary focus to solve a complicated equation).

In (IT) consultancy assignments, there's a tendency to draw fancy 
diagrams and say "it works like that". How it actually works remains 
unspoken. The assumption that the other party understands the whole 
situation based on the diagram might be flawed. When I'm involved in an 
assignment, I force people to put matters into words by asking questions 
until I have a high level mental overview of the matter under 
investigation. During this "forced interview" (which does take more time 
than sketching a diagram) I can often infer things about the world that 
would probably not pop up if we just sketch a diagram. That has the 
advantage of bringing up unspoken issues and assumptions  which would 
remain unspoken if the problem is discussed visually, this can result in 
a more effective consultancy process and a better outcome.

Tim
On 2/6/2015 4:46 AM, Sabra Ewing wrote:
> Another reason I was curious about this is because in my last programming class, I learned a lot from being in the class. Of course, I still had to learn things at home, but I got a lot out of being in class as well. I knew what things I should study in more detail once I was at home.and the programming class I am currently in no, I don't get anything out of being there just like for math.no that situation is a little bit different, because for some reason I am able to learn program by studying myself so I can still keep up and do my labs and things even know I don't get anything out of the lectures.The reasons behind things have always interested me, so I wanted to know why I would've gotten so much out of my last class, but not as much out of this class.if I could figure out the difference, I could figure out what helps me learn things the best. Even if I still can't ever get things out of the class,this knowledge might help me in tutoring or it might help me find books and materials that I could more easily understand. I could know what to look for to know which things would work for me better.if I could find a patternconcerning what information I am missing for each one of my math classes that makes it hard for me to learn the material in class, I could know better what types of questions to ask.also, if I knew what the exact problem was, I could be on the lookout and know exactly when it starts to happen so it doesn't feel like I just sit down and then I am lost somehow. Maybe even if you had a bad presenter, you could ask questions that would force that person to give you the information that you need. I'm not trying to suggest that anyone is intentionally withholding information, but even if they are presenting things unconsciously in a way that makes it difficult to get the information, you could ask something so that they would have to give the information more clearly. HoweverI don't know how this would be done.for example, I tried to ask a question in my class about a homework problem that involved a plane flying in the air. Now it understand it because I went to tutoring, but back then, all I knew was that this plane flying was supposed to make a triangle, but I didn't know how.I asked my professor how it was supposed to make a triangle and I got an answer to my question, but I still didn't know how it makes a triangle.
>
> Sabra Ewing
>
>> On Feb 5, 2015, at 9:34 PM, Sabra Ewing <sabra1023 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So it might not be possible for me to get very much out of a lecture then.i'm not actually looking for details. I was just looking for basic big picture outlines of topics. But I feel like when I go to class the other students get those things and I don't.I probably can't ask my professor to go slower.maybe it might help if we actually did work on problems in class. I had a teacher last semester where for part of the class we worked on problems in groups to see if he understood it and that was helping until he kept pairing me with someone who couldn't speak any English.well, she could speak some English, but not well enough for me to understand.but most professors don't do that. They are convinced that the traditional lecture style is the most helpful and they are going to stay with that.I do wish I could get more out of my class while I'm actually in class, but I guess that won't be possible unless the structure of the class inherently changes, and that won't happen.I am glad that I have tutoring to help me learn the concepts so I can still take the course without getting things from the class, but I do think it's sad.honestly, I get so little out of my class that if I missed it, it wouldn't really affect me much, but if I missed tutoring, it would set me back a lot.
>>
>> Sabra Ewing
>>
>>> On Feb 5, 2015, at 9:19 PM, Tim in 't Veld <tim at dvlop.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Sabra,
>>> Might you not getting anything out of lectures be due to (over)reliance on slides / the blackboard?
>>> Many presenters, especially on mathematical or technical topics, will say things like "now, we have this formula here... then we subtract that variable to get that formula there ..."
>>> A bad presentation style. Not just because you exclude blind participants, but mainly because you go over the material way too fast and are bound to  lose your sighted audience as well (if they fall asleep they will close their eyes, then we at least have a level playing field in the lecture room).
>>> But that sighted audience could read your slides and get a grasp of what you're saying no matter how bad your presentation style or mastery of English actually is.
>>>
>>> Good presenters don't need slides or notes. They interact with their audience. Just as Jonathan (one of the best presenters I know) commented. A presentation is for the high level overview, it is not suited to fully cover all the detail which is in the lecture notes / book.
>>>
>>> In mathematics lectures you do need a blackboard sometimes, so it is incredibly hard for blind students or professors to be effective in mathematical group lectures. Still having a good presenter does make a huge difference.
>>>
>>> I'm not yet a very experienced presenter, but when I present I preferably present slideless (I sometimes make slides because people demand that, but never more than 4 - 5 short phrases per slide and never more than one slide per 2 - 3 minutes). I know my material so well that I can present it from memory (in a more or less improvised style based on a rough planning I have for the presentation). If I don't know the topic I'm presenting inside out, I have no right to bother people with my words.
>>>
>>> Another important point is to avoid monologues. Always open your presentation with a question, and ask the audience for input at several points during the presentation (just saying 'you can ask questions at any time' will not do). I guess many people hate this, I usually have the front row of any lecture room to myself. For some reason most students prefer withdrawing to the backmost row and focusing on their smartphone in devote silence. Regrettably, some professors (and most student presenters) accommodate them by rushing through 2 overfilled slides per minute in broken English. Fortunately most professors in my master program are good lecturers, and being part of the very small group which actually responds when they involve their audience really helps me grasp the material.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>> On 2/6/2015 1:55 AM, Sabra Ewing via Blindmath wrote:
>>>> I'm not expecting a 100% grass. I'm expecting a good enough grass though to get started learning outside of class. Sometimes I leave class with a 0% grasp on the material. Somehow, I was paying attention, but I didn't learn anything.this even happens when I ask questions. Even though I remember the answers to my questions,and I remember what went on in the class, I can't do the problems. I don't know why this is though. I can literally played back the entire class in my head.I even tried recording a class before and listening again, but it didn't help because I already remembered everything that happened anyways. I didn't get anything off of the recording that I didn't remember.so if I pay attention, remember everything that happens, and ask questions, why can't I do the problems until I go to tutoring?it would be good if in tutoring I could ask questions about what I already learned instead of having to learn everything from scratch.
>>>>
>>>> Sabra Ewing
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 5, 2015, at 6:45 PM, Sean Whalen <nabs.president at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> In my experience, and I think this is broadly true, much of the learning of
>>>>> these concepts comes with practice and discussion outside of class. I view
>>>>> the class as a first pass at the information, but I don't think most sighted
>>>>> students are walking out of the classroom with a 100% grasp on the material.
>>>>> In various economics and statistics classes that I have taken, when the
>>>>> professor has done well to read the board and describe key graphical
>>>>> concepts, I have left the room understanding the material better than many
>>>>> of the other students in the class. I haven't used tutors, but sitting down
>>>>> with classmates to work through problem sets has been when I really felt
>>>>> that I was gaining a firm handle on the content.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sean
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sabra
>>>>> Ewing via Blindmath
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 7:40 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Looking for a particular type of person to ask
>>>>> questions
>>>>>
>>>>> When I say benefit fully, I mean you as a blind student got at least what
>>>>> one average cited student would get out of the class. If you were in a
>>>>> higher level math course, for example algebra two and beyond or college
>>>>> algebra and beyond, with other blind students,I would also be curious to
>>>>> know what the format of those classes are and how they work. What do they do
>>>>> instead of just making everybody look at a board because they can't.or if
>>>>> you were a teacher and you would be expected to teach a higher level math
>>>>> course two blind students, how would you do it or how did you do it in the
>>>>> past?I am curious because when I work one-on-one with a tutor, I can learn a
>>>>> lot, but in the class, I can't, and I really want to learn more from being
>>>>> in a classroom setting.I have had teachers verbalize what is on the board
>>>>> and give me problems and graphs to look at in class, but it hasn't helped
>>>>> and I don't know why.I know it is not a problem with my learning because I
>>>>> can learn it if someone teaches it to me outside of class.I want to actually
>>>>> learn from being inside my classroom instead of wishing it would be over and
>>>>> just learning everything outside of class at tutoring. I know this is
>>>>> possible, but I don't know what it would take for it to happen. So I have to
>>>>> figure out what it would take, and then how that could work within the
>>>>> confines of the educational system that my college has.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sabra Ewing
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 5, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Sabra Ewing <sabra1023 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am looking for someone who was successful at learning higher level math
>>>>> courses in a high school or college settingwith in the confines of the
>>>>> class. If you got tutoring outside of class, that is fine, but I am looking
>>>>> for someone who actually went to a math class and benefited fully from it
>>>>> rather than solely relying on outside help.if you taught a blind student who
>>>>> you felt benefited fully from your class, I am interested in hearing from
>>>>> you as well.I want to know what happened inside the class to make you
>>>>> benefit from it. What strategies did you use as the teacher for the teacher
>>>>> use that you found effective as the student?did the structure of the class
>>>>> change to be more interactive for all of the students? If so, how? Is it
>>>>> possible for a blind student to fully benefit from a math class the way
>>>>> decided student would without changing the inherent structure of the way the
>>>>> school teaches?let's assume a traditional lecture teaching style here.also,
>>>>> what is it about a math class that makes it hard for you to get things from
>>>>> it?apart from verbalizing things on the boardis there anything you ask a
>>>>> teacher to do when you weren't getting something out of a class that was
>>>>> successful?also, could you please provide specific concrete examples rather
>>>>> then abstract statements? Thank you.
>>>>>> Sabra Ewing
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