[Blindmath] Looking for a particular type of person to ask questions

Fri Feb 6 17:52:51 UTC 2015

Hi Tim,

I just wanted to add that I found your last message interesting for
two reasons: First, I've always found programming easy to understand
while mathematical proofs often remind me of extremely long run-on
sentences. If my fingers lose their place in that equation that spans
7 lines, I'm finished. Second, this is the first semester where I'm
required to program with a partner, and I'm struggling to wrap my mind
around how we will communicate. I think your comments were useful.

Amanda

On 2/6/15, Tim in 't Veld via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi Sabra,
> Yes I agree, tutoring works much better for me than traditional
> lectures. That's also why an interactive lecturing style (where I answer
> a lecturer's questions and then we effectively engage in a discussion)
> works that well for me I think.
>
> If someone tells you "the airplane makes a triangle", he forces you to
> visualize that triangle (unless he gives you a tactile image). I can
> visualize a triangle to some extent, but just explaining the visuals
> probably won't make a blind student understand the issue better. It's a
> whole different way of thinking about a problem, I might understand the
> problem if the person explaining to me was taking the effort to really
> put what is happening in words rather than using the graphical metaphor.
> So like "the plane's lift counteracts the gravity and this keeps it in
> the air" rather than "there's an arrow under the plane and an arrow
> above the plane; the arrows have equal length and direction" (that
> latter statement is already more verbal than the way many sighted
> physicians would view this issue).
>
> You seem to be saying you can grasp programming more easily than
> mathematics. That also applies to me. I think that's because programming
> can be viewed as a "conceptual linguistic" exercise where as mathematics
> is a symbolic exercise which requires me to have at least a two
> dimensional overview of the text. A programming language is linear and
> quite abstract by definition and doesn't involve 'strange symbols'. That
> goes much better with a linear working style than mathematical formulae.
> If I translate a mathematical formula into an imperative programming
> language, I'm essentially describing the problem in words or
> instructions if you will. The program tells me exactly what I need to do
> in a textual manner.
>
> A good chess player has a mental image of his board and can essentially
> play blind. The only successful blind mathematicians are those whose
> skills are so good that they can work out problems in their head and
> have the motivation to put inordinate amounts of time into grasping a
> formula. I'm quite an effective programmer because I have a mental
> overview of my program. When something goes wrong, I can quickly recall
> the bits of code which could cause the issue and do a focused
> investigation. In general I quickly link issues to one another, an
> essential skill when debugging code (but maybe also keeping me from
> having the necessary focus to solve a complicated equation).
>
> In (IT) consultancy assignments, there's a tendency to draw fancy
> diagrams and say "it works like that". How it actually works remains
> unspoken. The assumption that the other party understands the whole
> situation based on the diagram might be flawed. When I'm involved in an
> assignment, I force people to put matters into words by asking questions
> until I have a high level mental overview of the matter under
> investigation. During this "forced interview" (which does take more time
> than sketching a diagram) I can often infer things about the world that
> would probably not pop up if we just sketch a diagram. That has the
> advantage of bringing up unspoken issues and assumptions  which would
> remain unspoken if the problem is discussed visually, this can result in
> a more effective consultancy process and a better outcome.
>
> Tim
> On 2/6/2015 4:46 AM, Sabra Ewing wrote:
>> Another reason I was curious about this is because in my last programming
>> class, I learned a lot from being in the class. Of course, I still had to
>> learn things at home, but I got a lot out of being in class as well. I
>> knew what things I should study in more detail once I was at home.and the
>> programming class I am currently in no, I don't get anything out of being
>> there just like for math.no that situation is a little bit different,
>> because for some reason I am able to learn program by studying myself so I
>> can still keep up and do my labs and things even know I don't get anything
>> out of the lectures.The reasons behind things have always interested me,
>> so I wanted to know why I would've gotten so much out of my last class,
>> but not as much out of this class.if I could figure out the difference, I
>> could figure out what helps me learn things the best. Even if I still
>> can't ever get things out of the class,this knowledge might help me in
>> tutoring or it might help me find books and materials that I could more
>> easily understand. I could know what to look for to know which things
>> would work for me better.if I could find a patternconcerning what
>> information I am missing for each one of my math classes that makes it
>> hard for me to learn the material in class, I could know better what types
>> of questions to ask.also, if I knew what the exact problem was, I could be
>> on the lookout and know exactly when it starts to happen so it doesn't
>> feel like I just sit down and then I am lost somehow. Maybe even if you
>> had a bad presenter, you could ask questions that would force that person
>> to give you the information that you need. I'm not trying to suggest that
>> anyone is intentionally withholding information, but even if they are
>> presenting things unconsciously in a way that makes it difficult to get
>> the information, you could ask something so that they would have to give
>> the information more clearly. HoweverI don't know how this would be
>> done.for example, I tried to ask a question in my class about a homework
>> problem that involved a plane flying in the air. Now it understand it
>> because I went to tutoring, but back then, all I knew was that this plane
>> flying was supposed to make a triangle, but I didn't know how.I asked my
>> professor how it was supposed to make a triangle and I got an answer to my
>> question, but I still didn't know how it makes a triangle.
>>
>> Sabra Ewing
>>
>>> On Feb 5, 2015, at 9:34 PM, Sabra Ewing <sabra1023 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> So it might not be possible for me to get very much out of a lecture
>>> then.i'm not actually looking for details. I was just looking for basic
>>> big picture outlines of topics. But I feel like when I go to class the
>>> other students get those things and I don't.I probably can't ask my
>>> professor to go slower.maybe it might help if we actually did work on
>>> problems in class. I had a teacher last semester where for part of the
>>> class we worked on problems in groups to see if he understood it and that
>>> was helping until he kept pairing me with someone who couldn't speak any
>>> English.well, she could speak some English, but not well enough for me to
>>> understand.but most professors don't do that. They are convinced that the
>>> traditional lecture style is the most helpful and they are going to stay
>>> with that.I do wish I could get more out of my class while I'm actually
>>> in class, but I guess that won't be possible unless the structure of the
>>> class inherently changes, and that won't happen.I am glad that I have
>>> tutoring to help me learn the concepts so I can still take the course
>>> without getting things from the class, but I do think it's sad.honestly,
>>> I get so little out of my class that if I missed it, it wouldn't really
>>> affect me much, but if I missed tutoring, it would set me back a lot.
>>>
>>> Sabra Ewing
>>>
>>>> On Feb 5, 2015, at 9:19 PM, Tim in 't Veld <tim at dvlop.nl> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Sabra,
>>>> Might you not getting anything out of lectures be due to (over)reliance
>>>> on slides / the blackboard?
>>>> Many presenters, especially on mathematical or technical topics, will
>>>> say things like "now, we have this formula here... then we subtract that
>>>> variable to get that formula there ..."
>>>> A bad presentation style. Not just because you exclude blind
>>>> participants, but mainly because you go over the material way too fast
>>>> and are bound to  lose your sighted audience as well (if they fall
>>>> asleep they will close their eyes, then we at least have a level playing
>>>> field in the lecture room).
>>>> But that sighted audience could read your slides and get a grasp of what
>>>> you're saying no matter how bad your presentation style or mastery of
>>>> English actually is.
>>>>
>>>> Good presenters don't need slides or notes. They interact with their
>>>> audience. Just as Jonathan (one of the best presenters I know)
>>>> commented. A presentation is for the high level overview, it is not
>>>> suited to fully cover all the detail which is in the lecture notes /
>>>> book.
>>>>
>>>> In mathematics lectures you do need a blackboard sometimes, so it is
>>>> incredibly hard for blind students or professors to be effective in
>>>> mathematical group lectures. Still having a good presenter does make a
>>>> huge difference.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not yet a very experienced presenter, but when I present I
>>>> preferably present slideless (I sometimes make slides because people
>>>> demand that, but never more than 4 - 5 short phrases per slide and never
>>>> more than one slide per 2 - 3 minutes). I know my material so well that
>>>> I can present it from memory (in a more or less improvised style based
>>>> on a rough planning I have for the presentation). If I don't know the
>>>> topic I'm presenting inside out, I have no right to bother people with
>>>> my words.
>>>>
>>>> Another important point is to avoid monologues. Always open your
>>>> presentation with a question, and ask the audience for input at several
>>>> points during the presentation (just saying 'you can ask questions at
>>>> any time' will not do). I guess many people hate this, I usually have
>>>> the front row of any lecture room to myself. For some reason most
>>>> students prefer withdrawing to the backmost row and focusing on their
>>>> smartphone in devote silence. Regrettably, some professors (and most
>>>> student presenters) accommodate them by rushing through 2 overfilled
>>>> slides per minute in broken English. Fortunately most professors in my
>>>> master program are good lecturers, and being part of the very small
>>>> group which actually responds when they involve their audience really
>>>> helps me grasp the material.
>>>>
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/6/2015 1:55 AM, Sabra Ewing via Blindmath wrote:
>>>>> I'm not expecting a 100% grass. I'm expecting a good enough grass
>>>>> though to get started learning outside of class. Sometimes I leave
>>>>> class with a 0% grasp on the material. Somehow, I was paying attention,
>>>>> but I didn't learn anything.this even happens when I ask questions.
>>>>> Even though I remember the answers to my questions,and I remember what
>>>>> went on in the class, I can't do the problems. I don't know why this is
>>>>> though. I can literally played back the entire class in my head.I even
>>>>> tried recording a class before and listening again, but it didn't help
>>>>> because I already remembered everything that happened anyways. I didn't
>>>>> get anything off of the recording that I didn't remember.so if I pay
>>>>> attention, remember everything that happens, and ask questions, why
>>>>> can't I do the problems until I go to tutoring?it would be good if in
>>>>> tutoring I could ask questions about what I already learned instead of
>>>>> having to learn everything from scratch.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sabra Ewing
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 5, 2015, at 6:45 PM, Sean Whalen <nabs.president at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my experience, and I think this is broadly true, much of the
>>>>>> learning of
>>>>>> these concepts comes with practice and discussion outside of class. I
>>>>>> view
>>>>>> the class as a first pass at the information, but I don't think most
>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>> students are walking out of the classroom with a 100% grasp on the
>>>>>> material.
>>>>>> In various economics and statistics classes that I have taken, when
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> professor has done well to read the board and describe key graphical
>>>>>> concepts, I have left the room understanding the material better than
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> of the other students in the class. I haven't used tutors, but sitting
>>>>>> down
>>>>>> with classmates to work through problem sets has been when I really
>>>>>> felt
>>>>>> that I was gaining a firm handle on the content.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sean
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Sabra
>>>>>> Ewing via Blindmath
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 7:40 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] Looking for a particular type of person to
>>>>>> ask
>>>>>> questions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I say benefit fully, I mean you as a blind student got at least
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> one average cited student would get out of the class. If you were in
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> higher level math course, for example algebra two and beyond or
>>>>>> college
>>>>>> algebra and beyond, with other blind students,I would also be curious
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> know what the format of those classes are and how they work. What do
>>>>>> they do
>>>>>> instead of just making everybody look at a board because they can't.or
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> you were a teacher and you would be expected to teach a higher level
>>>>>> math
>>>>>> course two blind students, how would you do it or how did you do it in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> past?I am curious because when I work one-on-one with a tutor, I can
>>>>>> learn a
>>>>>> lot, but in the class, I can't, and I really want to learn more from
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> in a classroom setting.I have had teachers verbalize what is on the
>>>>>> board
>>>>>> and give me problems and graphs to look at in class, but it hasn't
>>>>>> helped
>>>>>> and I don't know why.I know it is not a problem with my learning
>>>>>> because I
>>>>>> can learn it if someone teaches it to me outside of class.I want to
>>>>>> actually
>>>>>> learn from being inside my classroom instead of wishing it would be
>>>>>> over and
>>>>>> just learning everything outside of class at tutoring. I know this is
>>>>>> possible, but I don't know what it would take for it to happen. So I
>>>>>> have to
>>>>>> figure out what it would take, and then how that could work within
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> confines of the educational system that my college has.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sabra Ewing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 5, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Sabra Ewing <sabra1023 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am looking for someone who was successful at learning higher level
>>>>>>> math
>>>>>> courses in a high school or college settingwith in the confines of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> class. If you got tutoring outside of class, that is fine, but I am
>>>>>> looking
>>>>>> for someone who actually went to a math class and benefited fully from
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> rather than solely relying on outside help.if you taught a blind
>>>>>> student who
>>>>>> you felt benefited fully from your class, I am interested in hearing
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> you as well.I want to know what happened inside the class to make you
>>>>>> benefit from it. What strategies did you use as the teacher for the
>>>>>> teacher
>>>>>> use that you found effective as the student?did the structure of the
>>>>>> class
>>>>>> change to be more interactive for all of the students? If so, how? Is
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> possible for a blind student to fully benefit from a math class the
>>>>>> way
>>>>>> decided student would without changing the inherent structure of the
>>>>>> way the
>>>>>> school teaches?let's assume a traditional lecture teaching style
>>>>>> here.also,
>>>>>> what is it about a math class that makes it hard for you to get things
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> it?apart from verbalizing things on the boardis there anything you ask
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> teacher to do when you weren't getting something out of a class that
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> successful?also, could you please provide specific concrete examples
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> then abstract statements? Thank you.
>>>>>>> Sabra Ewing
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Blindmath:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmai
>>>>>> l.com
>>>>>> BlindMath Gems can be found at
>>>>>> <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Blindmath mailing list
>>>>> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Blindmath:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/tim%40dvlop.nl
>>>>> BlindMath Gems can be found at
>>>>> <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
>>>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blindmath mailing list
> Blindmath at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Blindmath:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/lacy925%40gmail.com
> BlindMath Gems can be found at
> <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
>