[Blindmath] braille code changes and nemeth

Tue Mar 24 05:26:17 UTC 2015

as long as it is an English speaking country, yes.

On 3/24/15, Lynn Reed via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> This is why I am in favor of UEB. Anywhere in the world my kids want to go
> for work or pleasure they will most likely have access to UEB.
>
> What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
> ----Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:14 PM, Allan Mesoga via Blindmath
>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> UEB has good logical pattern. In the Philippines, we will be using UEB
>> for literary Braille and Nemeth for Math Materials.
>>
>>> On 3/23/15, George Bell via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> And thanks from me too, Steve.
>>>
>>> The UK is ahead of the States in implementing UEB, and speaking from a
>>> Duxbury support point of view, in that role we have been very close to
>>> the
>>> concerns of both teachers and users.
>>>
>>> As far as the literary side of UEB is concerned, there have been and
>>> still
>>> are, many urban myths.  No, spelling is not affected.  No, it does not
>>> significantly increase volume.  No, UEB does not affect formatting. No,
>>> you
>>> are not being forced to use UEB for mathematics. And on they go.
>>>
>>> UEB does remove many potential ambiguities and differences between
>>> English
>>> braille variants, and as has been pointed out, even relaxes some rules.
>>> Back translation is far more reliable, especially when using software to
>>> do
>>> this.
>>>
>>> At least here in the UK, now UEB is becoming more available, more
>>> anti-UEB
>>> readers are accepting it and agreeing that the changes are in fact
>>> relatively straightforward and understood.  Mandatory capitalisation is
>>> probably the major complaint amongst older readers, but as we've pointed
>>> out, this has been standard elsewhere for a long time.  If anything, this
>>> is
>>> now helping to teach correct capitalisation.
>>>
>>> The bottom line is that this is all helping to keep the cost of
>>> producing
>>> braille down.
>>>
>>> With Mathematics, it has been left to individual Braille Authorities to
>>> decide whether or not to use Nemeth or UEB for math.  There have been
>>> some
>>> issues regarding Nemeth indicators within UEB, but progress has been
>>> made
>>> there.  The net result is that you can use UEB for text and Nemeth for
>>> math.
>>>
>>> George.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Susan
>>> Mooney via Blindmath
>>> Sent: 22 March 2015 23:32
>>> To: Steve Jacobson; Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] braille code changes and nemeth
>>>
>>> Thank you, Steve Jacobson!  As a transcriber, I know I have been stressed
>>> by
>>> the changes and I hope there will be workshops to help us all learn and
>>> adjust and that the workshops will be within reasonable traveling
>>> distance.
>>> (All my available crossable parts are crossed in hopes that will
>>> happen.)  I thought I was the only one who remembered the Taylor Code.
>>> UEB
>>> is awkward right now and it looks and feels funny to me, but I hope I
>>> will
>>> slide right into it and that the producers of braille translation
>>> software
>>> develop something affordable soon.  All those hopes!  As a former teacher
>>> of
>>> the blind--but still a transcriber--I have one more hope and that's for
>>> the
>>> teachers to firmly learn UEB as well.  Thanks for such a great post!
>>>
>>> Susan M.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Steve Jacobson via Blindmath <
>>> blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Heidi and others,
>>>>
>>>> First, I really do not think that you will find that your daughter's
>>>> education or stress level will be significantly raised by this change.
>>>> I say that having been required in the 1950's and 1960's to switch
>>>> from the Taylor Code for math, to the first version of Nemeth Code and
>>>> then a second version of Nemeth and there were profound differences
>>>> with each change.  I experienced some substantial changes to Grade Two
>>>> braille as well, and there were a lot of texts that were written in
>>>> what was called grade one-and-a-half then.  Would my life have been
>>>> easier if that were not the case, probably, but we didn't think a lot
>>>> about it.
>>>>
>>>> More generally, your friend who said change was not inevitable may
>>>> have been referring specifically to changing to UEB, I don't know, but
>>>> I believe changes to the braille code in general are inevitable.
>>>> Either braill had to change or it was destined to become less
>>>> relevant.  I believe this is the case Partly because print has changed
>>>> dramatically during the past three or four decades.  Also, we, as
>>>> blind people, are more affected by print presentation now than was the
>>>> case before computers, optical character recognition, and electronic
>>>> texts.
>>>>
>>>> It has been more than twenty years now since serious discussions began
>>>> as to how to make it possible for braille to better reflect changing
>>>> print conventions and to make better use of our ability to get text
>>>> electronically.  The debate has often been very emotional, and at
>>>> times, there was considerable polarization.
>>>> This means that even today, emotions run high regarding what should be
>>>> done with braille.  Those of you who have read "War of the Dots" know
>>>> this is nothing new.  I think it is safe to say that people tend to
>>>> get emotional when discussing something that means a great deal to
>>>> them.  What makes the issue even more complicated is that there is no
>>>> perfect solution, including doing nothing at all.
>>>>
>>>> Over time, Unified English Braille has emerged as the code that most
>>>> of us have gotten behind as a path forward, but certainly not all of
>>>> us.  In particular, some of UEB's detractors were very upset with the
>>>> UEB's code of mathematics.  Ueb developers did a credible job of
>>>> making it possible for math symbols and numbers to be written
>>>> consistently whether in text or within mathematics, but there seemed
>>>> to be a cost.  It was demonstrated by some that many mathematical
>>>> expressions could take as many as twice as many symbols to write, and
>>>> this raised concerns for many of us.  In addition, mathematical texts
>>>> are still particularly dependent upon humans to accurately transcribe
>>>> them, and changing to UEB for math would have required major
>>>> retraining, much more than in the case of literary braille.  For that
>>>> reason, a reasonable compromise seemed to be to stick with our current
>>>> Nemeth Code for math rather than changing both literary and
>>>> mathematical braille.
>>>>
>>>> If one reads the War of the Dots one learns that in the early part of
>>>> the twentieth century, different schools for the blind in the united
>>>> states taught different versions of braille.  New York Point was
>>>> nothing like the braille we read today, even having a differently
>>>> shaped cell, but it had a good deal of support a hundred years ago.
>>>> In addition, there were multiple versions of 6-dot braille that used
>>>> different sets of contractions.  It took some time for a single system
>>>> to evolve and to gain widespread use.  This experience makes it
>>>> obvious to me that we need a group to set standards, even if
>>>> voluntary.
>>>> This is pretty much what BANA is.  They don't have, to my knowledge,
>>>> any legal power as your friend said, but are made up of
>>>> representatives of many diverse groups.  Your friend is right, people
>>>> could ignore BANA, but where does that leave us?  Is this approach so
>>>> bad that it is worth fragmenting braille when it is already under such
>>>> pressure from other forces?  The current approach isn't perfect, but
>>>> neither is any other system that has been examined.
>>>> However, it does seem to me that the current approach of using UEB and
>>>> Nemeth Code for math gives us the best approach to open up braille to
>>>> accommodate changes in the future with the least disruption to braille
>>>> readers, teachers and transcribers.  Work needs to be completed as to
>>>> how to integrate Nemeth Code with UEB but a lot has already been
>>>> accomplished.
>>>> There is now a symbol that indicates that Nemeth Code is starting, for
>>>> example, that was not part of UEB even a few years ago.  The challenge
>>>> of how to handle short mathematical passages has not been completely
>>>> resolve yet but there is awareness of difficulties that can arise if
>>>> there are a lot of indicators switching in and out of Nemeth code.
>>>> Interestingly, the math books I used some years ago used the literary
>>>> braille numbers for page numbers and within the table of contents, and
>>>> even to number word problems.  Some of these conventions changed over
>>>> time, I understand that, but math books simply have not necessarily
>>>> been all Nemeth Code as was suggested.  Science texts that are less
>>>> mathematical have had to bounce between literary braille and Nemeth
>>>> Code all along and some of this will remain and it isn't really new.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it is too strong a statement to say that the changes are a
>>>> "done deal."  However, there does come a time when we need to move
>>>> forward and think about the path that is ahead of us, how to make it
>>>> better, how to make the transition as smooth as possible, and how to
>>>> increase our rate of literacy.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 18:51:39 -0400, HPS via Blindmath wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes to all Susan states, I'm a parent and my daughter is in 9th
>>>>> grade. I
>>>> don't know how this will affect her right at a critical point in high
>>>> school, and I'm not looking forward to dealing with all the extra
>>>> stress this will bring.
>>>> These are not simple changes as some have mentioned.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I like to know what to expect, and what to prepare her for. This is
>>>>> not
>>>> just the job of her VI Teacher, who is still not sure what all the
>>>> changes are either.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> So, it seems that a lot was done and I had no idea about it til about
>>>>> 1
>>>> year ago. Seems that if you don't belong to some organization you are
>>>> out.
>>>> There
>>>> was not a lot of talk about this in any list, that seems weird to me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I also since discovering this list have been interested in what all
>>>>> of
>>>> your points of view are, specifically how these changes will impact
>>>> any math and science students and professionals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As with any change there are good things and bad things that come
>>>>> with
>>>> it. In this case I do not care for the bad that this will bring, and
>>>> these are my daughters feelings, she is not happy with any of the
>>>> changes with Nemeth.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I apologize for any grammar mistakes as English is not my first
>>>>> language.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Heidi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Susan Jolly via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> To: blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sat, Mar 21, 2015 6:31 pm
>>>>> Subject: [Blindmath] braille code changes and nemeth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I can't speak for others but here's why I'm still discussing it.
>>>>
>>>>> 1. A done
>>>>> deal doesn't always stay done.  I thought UEB was done with in the US
>>>>> back when NFB passed Resolutions 2002-04 and 2002-05.
>>>>> 2. I assume BANA is taking
>>>>> into consideration how the transition was and is going to be
>>>>> implemented in other countries, especially in Australia and New
>>>>> Zealand where the implementations are pretty much complete.  These
>>>>> two countries took a phased approach so that older students weren't
>>>>> confronted with a code change at critical points in their educational
>>>>> careers.
>>>>> Hopefully the more that parents,
>>>>> teachers, and braille learners themselves understand about the
>>>>> details, the better the individual decisions they can make as to
>>>>> timing.
>>>>> 3. To my
>>>>> knowledge no country other than the US has combined Nemeth math with
>>>>> UEB text so my guess is that the exact rules for how this is going to
>>>>> be implemented are still evolving and this is where the expertise of
>>>>> the Blindmath community will be helpful.  For example, the person who
>>>>> started this thread pointed out that there are questions about how
>>>>> best to integrate the use of Nemeth for displayed math with
>>>>> associated inline math references to that displayed math.
>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> Susan Jolly
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
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