[Blindmath] braille code changes and nemeth
George Bell
george at techno-vision.co.uk
Tue Mar 24 12:26:11 UTC 2015
UEB is not just for English Speaking countries. I know from personal experience that many countries are beginning to accept UEB for what it is, and are being encouraged to make the move.
George
-----Original Message-----
From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jorge A. Paez via Blindmath
Sent: 24 March 2015 05:26
To: Lynn Reed; Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] braille code changes and nemeth
as long as it is an English speaking country, yes.
On 3/24/15, Lynn Reed via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> This is why I am in favor of UEB. Anywhere in the world my kids want
> to go for work or pleasure they will most likely have access to UEB.
>
> What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
> ----Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:14 PM, Allan Mesoga via Blindmath
>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> UEB has good logical pattern. In the Philippines, we will be using
>> UEB for literary Braille and Nemeth for Math Materials.
>>
>>> On 3/23/15, George Bell via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> And thanks from me too, Steve.
>>>
>>> The UK is ahead of the States in implementing UEB, and speaking from
>>> a Duxbury support point of view, in that role we have been very
>>> close to the concerns of both teachers and users.
>>>
>>> As far as the literary side of UEB is concerned, there have been and
>>> still are, many urban myths. No, spelling is not affected. No, it
>>> does not significantly increase volume. No, UEB does not affect
>>> formatting. No, you are not being forced to use UEB for mathematics.
>>> And on they go.
>>>
>>> UEB does remove many potential ambiguities and differences between
>>> English braille variants, and as has been pointed out, even relaxes
>>> some rules.
>>> Back translation is far more reliable, especially when using
>>> software to do this.
>>>
>>> At least here in the UK, now UEB is becoming more available, more
>>> anti-UEB readers are accepting it and agreeing that the changes are
>>> in fact relatively straightforward and understood. Mandatory
>>> capitalisation is probably the major complaint amongst older
>>> readers, but as we've pointed out, this has been standard elsewhere
>>> for a long time. If anything, this is now helping to teach correct
>>> capitalisation.
>>>
>>> The bottom line is that this is all helping to keep the cost of
>>> producing braille down.
>>>
>>> With Mathematics, it has been left to individual Braille Authorities
>>> to decide whether or not to use Nemeth or UEB for math. There have
>>> been some issues regarding Nemeth indicators within UEB, but
>>> progress has been made there. The net result is that you can use
>>> UEB for text and Nemeth for math.
>>>
>>> George.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Blindmath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Susan Mooney via Blindmath
>>> Sent: 22 March 2015 23:32
>>> To: Steve Jacobson; Blind Math list for those interested in
>>> mathematics
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] braille code changes and nemeth
>>>
>>> Thank you, Steve Jacobson! As a transcriber, I know I have been
>>> stressed by the changes and I hope there will be workshops to help
>>> us all learn and adjust and that the workshops will be within
>>> reasonable traveling distance.
>>> (All my available crossable parts are crossed in hopes that will
>>> happen.) I thought I was the only one who remembered the Taylor Code.
>>> UEB
>>> is awkward right now and it looks and feels funny to me, but I hope
>>> I will slide right into it and that the producers of braille
>>> translation software develop something affordable soon. All those
>>> hopes! As a former teacher of the blind--but still a transcriber--I
>>> have one more hope and that's for the teachers to firmly learn UEB
>>> as well. Thanks for such a great post!
>>>
>>> Susan M.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Steve Jacobson via Blindmath <
>>> blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Heidi and others,
>>>>
>>>> First, I really do not think that you will find that your
>>>> daughter's education or stress level will be significantly raised by this change.
>>>> I say that having been required in the 1950's and 1960's to switch
>>>> from the Taylor Code for math, to the first version of Nemeth Code
>>>> and then a second version of Nemeth and there were profound
>>>> differences with each change. I experienced some substantial
>>>> changes to Grade Two braille as well, and there were a lot of texts
>>>> that were written in what was called grade one-and-a-half then.
>>>> Would my life have been easier if that were not the case, probably,
>>>> but we didn't think a lot about it.
>>>>
>>>> More generally, your friend who said change was not inevitable may
>>>> have been referring specifically to changing to UEB, I don't know,
>>>> but I believe changes to the braille code in general are inevitable.
>>>> Either braill had to change or it was destined to become less
>>>> relevant. I believe this is the case Partly because print has
>>>> changed dramatically during the past three or four decades. Also,
>>>> we, as blind people, are more affected by print presentation now
>>>> than was the case before computers, optical character recognition,
>>>> and electronic texts.
>>>>
>>>> It has been more than twenty years now since serious discussions
>>>> began as to how to make it possible for braille to better reflect
>>>> changing print conventions and to make better use of our ability to
>>>> get text electronically. The debate has often been very emotional,
>>>> and at times, there was considerable polarization.
>>>> This means that even today, emotions run high regarding what should
>>>> be done with braille. Those of you who have read "War of the Dots"
>>>> know this is nothing new. I think it is safe to say that people
>>>> tend to get emotional when discussing something that means a great
>>>> deal to them. What makes the issue even more complicated is that
>>>> there is no perfect solution, including doing nothing at all.
>>>>
>>>> Over time, Unified English Braille has emerged as the code that
>>>> most of us have gotten behind as a path forward, but certainly not
>>>> all of us. In particular, some of UEB's detractors were very upset
>>>> with the UEB's code of mathematics. Ueb developers did a credible
>>>> job of making it possible for math symbols and numbers to be
>>>> written consistently whether in text or within mathematics, but
>>>> there seemed to be a cost. It was demonstrated by some that many
>>>> mathematical expressions could take as many as twice as many
>>>> symbols to write, and this raised concerns for many of us. In
>>>> addition, mathematical texts are still particularly dependent upon
>>>> humans to accurately transcribe them, and changing to UEB for math
>>>> would have required major retraining, much more than in the case of
>>>> literary braille. For that reason, a reasonable compromise seemed
>>>> to be to stick with our current Nemeth Code for math rather than
>>>> changing both literary and mathematical braille.
>>>>
>>>> If one reads the War of the Dots one learns that in the early part
>>>> of the twentieth century, different schools for the blind in the
>>>> united states taught different versions of braille. New York Point
>>>> was nothing like the braille we read today, even having a
>>>> differently shaped cell, but it had a good deal of support a hundred years ago.
>>>> In addition, there were multiple versions of 6-dot braille that
>>>> used different sets of contractions. It took some time for a
>>>> single system to evolve and to gain widespread use. This
>>>> experience makes it obvious to me that we need a group to set
>>>> standards, even if voluntary.
>>>> This is pretty much what BANA is. They don't have, to my
>>>> knowledge, any legal power as your friend said, but are made up of
>>>> representatives of many diverse groups. Your friend is right,
>>>> people could ignore BANA, but where does that leave us? Is this
>>>> approach so bad that it is worth fragmenting braille when it is
>>>> already under such pressure from other forces? The current
>>>> approach isn't perfect, but neither is any other system that has been examined.
>>>> However, it does seem to me that the current approach of using UEB
>>>> and Nemeth Code for math gives us the best approach to open up
>>>> braille to accommodate changes in the future with the least
>>>> disruption to braille readers, teachers and transcribers. Work
>>>> needs to be completed as to how to integrate Nemeth Code with UEB
>>>> but a lot has already been accomplished.
>>>> There is now a symbol that indicates that Nemeth Code is starting,
>>>> for example, that was not part of UEB even a few years ago. The
>>>> challenge of how to handle short mathematical passages has not been
>>>> completely resolve yet but there is awareness of difficulties that
>>>> can arise if there are a lot of indicators switching in and out of Nemeth code.
>>>> Interestingly, the math books I used some years ago used the
>>>> literary braille numbers for page numbers and within the table of
>>>> contents, and even to number word problems. Some of these
>>>> conventions changed over time, I understand that, but math books
>>>> simply have not necessarily been all Nemeth Code as was suggested.
>>>> Science texts that are less mathematical have had to bounce between
>>>> literary braille and Nemeth Code all along and some of this will remain and it isn't really new.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it is too strong a statement to say that the changes are a
>>>> "done deal." However, there does come a time when we need to move
>>>> forward and think about the path that is ahead of us, how to make
>>>> it better, how to make the transition as smooth as possible, and
>>>> how to increase our rate of literacy.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 18:51:39 -0400, HPS via Blindmath wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes to all Susan states, I'm a parent and my daughter is in 9th
>>>>> grade. I
>>>> don't know how this will affect her right at a critical point in
>>>> high school, and I'm not looking forward to dealing with all the
>>>> extra stress this will bring.
>>>> These are not simple changes as some have mentioned.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I like to know what to expect, and what to prepare her for. This
>>>>> is not
>>>> just the job of her VI Teacher, who is still not sure what all the
>>>> changes are either.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> So, it seems that a lot was done and I had no idea about it til
>>>>> about
>>>>> 1
>>>> year ago. Seems that if you don't belong to some organization you
>>>> are out.
>>>> There
>>>> was not a lot of talk about this in any list, that seems weird to me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I also since discovering this list have been interested in what
>>>>> all of
>>>> your points of view are, specifically how these changes will impact
>>>> any math and science students and professionals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As with any change there are good things and bad things that come
>>>>> with
>>>> it. In this case I do not care for the bad that this will bring,
>>>> and these are my daughters feelings, she is not happy with any of
>>>> the changes with Nemeth.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I apologize for any grammar mistakes as English is not my first
>>>>> language.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Heidi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Susan Jolly via Blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> To: blindmath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sat, Mar 21, 2015 6:31 pm
>>>>> Subject: [Blindmath] braille code changes and nemeth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I can't speak for others but here's why I'm still discussing it.
>>>>
>>>>> 1. A done
>>>>> deal doesn't always stay done. I thought UEB was done with in the
>>>>> US back when NFB passed Resolutions 2002-04 and 2002-05.
>>>>> 2. I assume BANA is taking
>>>>> into consideration how the transition was and is going to be
>>>>> implemented in other countries, especially in Australia and New
>>>>> Zealand where the implementations are pretty much complete. These
>>>>> two countries took a phased approach so that older students
>>>>> weren't confronted with a code change at critical points in their
>>>>> educational careers.
>>>>> Hopefully the more that parents,
>>>>> teachers, and braille learners themselves understand about the
>>>>> details, the better the individual decisions they can make as to
>>>>> timing.
>>>>> 3. To my
>>>>> knowledge no country other than the US has combined Nemeth math
>>>>> with UEB text so my guess is that the exact rules for how this is
>>>>> going to be implemented are still evolving and this is where the
>>>>> expertise of the Blindmath community will be helpful. For
>>>>> example, the person who started this thread pointed out that there
>>>>> are questions about how best to integrate the use of Nemeth for
>>>>> displayed math with associated inline math references to that displayed math.
>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> Susan Jolly
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Be Here now. Be someplace else later. Is that so complicated? (Zen
>>> Judaism)
>>> <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/875661.Rumi>
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>>
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>
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--
Thank you.
Jorge A. Paez
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jorgeapaez
Elance page: http://jorgeapaez1994.elance.com
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