[BlindMath] help with website name

Wed Jul 19 12:55:22 UTC 2017

Jonathan, I started to write a long response, but at the end of the day
decided just to write this for now: I understand some of your
objections, but I promise you that you will like it :-) ! 

In particular, I really put some serious thought into architecture, and
making sure that everything will be geared towards letting the users
run things by themselves, if they are so inclined. I don't want to go
into details, but if you want me to convince you, please find me on
skype (user graboluka), and I'd be happy to go into technical details.

(obviously I would rather have people like you or, say, T.V. Raman "on
my side", as I value your contribution _enormously_. But I think you
might be seeing things through your own experience of, you know, being a
brilliant and successful scientist, which does not necessarily
correspond to the "needs of the masses")

Best,
Lukasz

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 01:30:07 +0000
"Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath" <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> I'm keen to improve the ability of bind people to access software in
> a general sense, but I'm curious about this initiative's ability to
> actually help.
> 
> My concern is that if someone is not "savvy" enough to set up some of
> the software used as examples, then they are probably not ready to
> use that software. I note for example, that Python and Octave get a
> mention. I've never heard of anyone having issues with the
> installation of either, but I have heard of people not knowing which
> way to run the software or do the work required. Use of an
> alternative interface does not solve the real problem here. The same
> is true for LaTeX where none of the default editors shipped with the
> standard installers for Windows are accessible.
> 
> Furthermore, until I see a demonstration, I am loathed to offer
> people hope that the proposed solution will actually work without
> introducing an extra layer of possible problems. Web interfaces for
> STEM software have repeatedly let us down in the past. Consider the
> discussions about various notebook-oriented solutions in particular.
> 
> I am a firm believer in giving people solutions that work, and making
> it easy to use the solutions includes making sure it is easy to set
> up the software in the first place. I would be extremely disappointed
> to see anyone pay for a service that is unnecessary, just because
> they don't know how to do the installation or know how to ask this
> community for help. I would include such software in this list as R,
> Maxima, Octave, Python, and SAS to name just a few. 
> 
> I would note that there is plenty of good advice in the list
> archives, and on a variety of webpages being mentioned as part of
> this thread. There is also an unfortunate tendency of people to state
> software is "not accessible" when they haven't got it to work for
> them, or worse, overstating the accessibility of software without
> adequate testing. We need the most up to date information on so many
> applications; I don't have the energy or expertise to manage reviews
> of more than the statistical software and any other tools I actually
> do use. I would like to see for example, I page on mathematical
> software that is like the one I manage for statistical software.
> 
> Finally, I would hope that anyone setting up a  service is in the
> best position to offer advice from an expert point of view. To me,
> that includes a thorough consideration of the sense of using a
> particular tool. For example, Doug comments that Octave is slower
> than Matlab for running large computationally intensive jobs. Given
> he is interested in this particular aspect for his work and I'm not,
> I rely on his expertise on that specific topic. I could teach someone
> to use minitab for example, but I know that the accessibility issues
> are so great that overcoming them is not a smart move even though it
> is possible. I won't take money off people to help them use Minitab
> because I can't offer them a long term solution that isn't going to
> end up relying on my ongoing support. While my support is coming to
> people at no cost, I am happy not answering email as soon as it
> arrives. When it comes time to have to jump up and down to support
> everyone at a moment's notice, I'll consider charging for my time
> too, but  I'm confident that my hourly rate is beyond the budget of
> most students. I am yet to refuse anyone assistance in installing R
> or pointing them towards the right resources. 
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> Sarah Jevnikar via BlindMath Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 8:18 a.m.
> To: 'Łukasz Grabowski'; blindmath at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Sarah Jevnikar
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] help with website name
> 
> Oh okay - Thanks for the clarification Lucasz. I can see this being a
> really helpful resource after all, especially with TVI's and students
> at all levels not eager to learn new software in addition to new
> academic concepts. Thanks again, Sarah
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Łukasz Grabowski [mailto:graboluk at gmail.com]
> Sent: July 17, 2017 4:00 PM
> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> Cc: sarah.jevnikar at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] help with website name
> 
> Sarah, It's not about providing information, but interface :-).
> 
> The point is: imagine someone on this mail list says e.g. you can do
> this and that using this and that software. But then you might be not
> technically savvy enough to set up that software. If this is the case
> then you can go to this webpage and essentially "run the software
> through the webpage via interface tailor-made for blind users". If
> you are technically savvy enough then the webpage won't do much for
> you.
> 
> In any case many thanks to everyone for useful inputs about the name
> - I gave up with the monad thing (with great regret! :-)) and settled
> on a more generic name along the lines which were suggested (I'm not
> announcing it just yet because I haven't bought the domain just
> yet :-) )
> 
> I hope to have some proof of concept in two weeks or less, first for
> latex and latexml, later for python and matlab/octave. I have further
> plans as well, some quite ambitious :-), and indeed it's likely I
> will look for contributors if the service ever take off, but that's
> probably several weeks or few months from now (if ever). I'll keep
> the list updated after I have something to share.
> 
> Best,
> Lukasz
> 
> 
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2017 15:47:01 -0400
> Sarah Jevnikar via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> > I confess I'm with Dr. Gardiner - I'm confused as to what this site 
> > would provide. I'm also concerned that diluting the amount of 
> > available information would make a difficult-to-access subject even 
> > more difficult to access.
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> > John Gardner via BlindMath
> > Sent: July 15, 2017 7:00 AM
> > To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> > Cc: John Gardner
> > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] help with website name
> > 
> > Hi, I may be just dense, but I don't get it. What will you offer
> > that is not available on this list? If an archive of directed
> > information is needed, I am happy to offer access2science.com as a
> > web site to post hints and instructions. There is already a lot
> > there, though I must admit it has not been updated enough since it
> > was first put together. Anybody want to volunteer to join the
> > editorial staff?
> > 
> > John Gardner
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> > Lukasz Grabowski via BlindMath
> > Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 8:06 AM
> > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > Cc: Łukasz Grabowski <graboluk at gmail.com>
> > Subject: [BlindMath] help with website name
> > 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > I will soon be starting a (paid) webservice for visually impaired
> > STEM students, whose initial aim will be providing interfaces to 
> > open-source software which are specifically designed for visually 
> > impaired people (in case you're interested what's the service
> > about, I describe it briefly below, but it's an early stage).
> > 
> > I spent way too much time thinking about a name :-). For now I
> > chose Blind Monad.
> > 
> > All the guides I read about choosing the domain name suggest to
> > check with target demographics how they like it. So - do you like
> > it? :-) It's somewhat inspired by the name of this group.
> > 
> > The word monad has many meanings but in the branch of maths called 
> > category theory monad is something which in particular describes 
> > interactions. Similarly in computer science monad is a concept
> > which can be used for description of user interfaces, etc. A friend
> > told me it's a bad name because noone will know what is a monad. I
> > get the point but perhaps on the other hand it invokes your
> > curiosity? :-)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Here are some very early details about the service. I came up with 
> > this idea after a recent private conversation with another group 
> > member Zach - it was clear that the problem he had, producing a 
> > diagram of a biochemical reaction, can be fairly easily solved by 
> > using open-source software. But the problem is having access to
> > linux, configuring orca or other linux screen reader correctly,
> > learning to interact with compilers, etc.
> > 
> > So the idea is that perhaps at first one could use a web-based 
> > front-end, and then if one thinks that it's a good idea, invest
> > time and resources into configuring their own computer. The kind of
> > things I want to provide access to are e.g. latex and latexml,
> > python, octave (clone of matlab), DOT language for graphs, etc.
> > plus "tailor-made" interfaces if you want to solve some specific
> > problem quickly. When I say "tailor-made" I really mean that the
> > user would describe the way how they would prefer to interact with
> > the website to solve a concrete problem (e.g. producing a diagram
> > of a biochemical reaction), and then we work together to come up
> > with an efficient interface.
> > 
> > In other words if you're a technically savvy person there's
> > probably not much in the above which you couldn't do yourself.
> > Also the service will not be meant to "hook you", but rather
> > introduce you to a technology in a most efficient fashion and
> > encourage to explore it on your own (perhaps on your own computer).
> > At a later stage I would perhaps also like to offer 1-1 "tutoring"
> > in usage of latex, octave, etc. but will see where it goes.
> > 
> > Best,
> > Lukasz
> > 
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> > 
> > 
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> 
> 
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