[BlindMath] help with website name

Wed Jul 19 15:28:05 UTC 2017

Lukasz,

Thank you for the compliments, even if they are a little over the top. They do not reduce my moral or philosophical objection to promoting a business that seeks to solve problems that do not need to be solved.

I offer my time freely to people in need because I believe in community, and the open source movement. I have been doing so on this list for ten years and I know there are others that have served this community in this manner for even longer. I do however, charge professional rates to businesses, government agencies, and other institutions as part of my professional practice. As this is a business venture on your behalf, I suggest to you that seeking buy-in from experts is something you should see as a business expense. I will take a look at your solution when it becomes available, but I will certainly not do so if it will cost me money; I won't charge your business for my time either because access to software is an interest of mine.

I will advise individuals against using a "solution" until such time as I see proof from verifiable experts that the solution is warranted and actually delivers something that is worth paying for. 

Perhaps if you had offered this service free of charge, I'd be more supportive. Would  you consider offering this interface to people for free over the next six months so that you can see if it is really warranted and gave the community an opportunity to evaluate it?

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lukasz Grabowski via BlindMath
Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 12:55 a.m.
To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
Cc: Łukasz Grabowski
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] help with website name

Jonathan, I started to write a long response, but at the end of the day decided just to write this for now: I understand some of your objections, but I promise you that you will like it :-) ! 

In particular, I really put some serious thought into architecture, and making sure that everything will be geared towards letting the users run things by themselves, if they are so inclined. I don't want to go into details, but if you want me to convince you, please find me on skype (user graboluka), and I'd be happy to go into technical details.

(obviously I would rather have people like you or, say, T.V. Raman "on my side", as I value your contribution _enormously_. But I think you might be seeing things through your own experience of, you know, being a brilliant and successful scientist, which does not necessarily correspond to the "needs of the masses")

Best,
Lukasz

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 01:30:07 +0000
"Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath" <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> I'm keen to improve the ability of bind people to access software in a 
> general sense, but I'm curious about this initiative's ability to 
> actually help.
> 
> My concern is that if someone is not "savvy" enough to set up some of 
> the software used as examples, then they are probably not ready to use 
> that software. I note for example, that Python and Octave get a 
> mention. I've never heard of anyone having issues with the 
> installation of either, but I have heard of people not knowing which 
> way to run the software or do the work required. Use of an alternative 
> interface does not solve the real problem here. The same is true for 
> LaTeX where none of the default editors shipped with the standard 
> installers for Windows are accessible.
> 
> Furthermore, until I see a demonstration, I am loathed to offer people 
> hope that the proposed solution will actually work without introducing 
> an extra layer of possible problems. Web interfaces for STEM software 
> have repeatedly let us down in the past. Consider the discussions 
> about various notebook-oriented solutions in particular.
> 
> I am a firm believer in giving people solutions that work, and making 
> it easy to use the solutions includes making sure it is easy to set up 
> the software in the first place. I would be extremely disappointed to 
> see anyone pay for a service that is unnecessary, just because they 
> don't know how to do the installation or know how to ask this 
> community for help. I would include such software in this list as R, 
> Maxima, Octave, Python, and SAS to name just a few.
> 
> I would note that there is plenty of good advice in the list archives, 
> and on a variety of webpages being mentioned as part of this thread. 
> There is also an unfortunate tendency of people to state software is 
> "not accessible" when they haven't got it to work for them, or worse, 
> overstating the accessibility of software without adequate testing. We 
> need the most up to date information on so many applications; I don't 
> have the energy or expertise to manage reviews of more than the 
> statistical software and any other tools I actually do use. I would 
> like to see for example, I page on mathematical software that is like 
> the one I manage for statistical software.
> 
> Finally, I would hope that anyone setting up a  service is in the best 
> position to offer advice from an expert point of view. To me, that 
> includes a thorough consideration of the sense of using a particular 
> tool. For example, Doug comments that Octave is slower than Matlab for 
> running large computationally intensive jobs. Given he is interested 
> in this particular aspect for his work and I'm not, I rely on his 
> expertise on that specific topic. I could teach someone to use minitab 
> for example, but I know that the accessibility issues are so great 
> that overcoming them is not a smart move even though it is possible. I 
> won't take money off people to help them use Minitab because I can't 
> offer them a long term solution that isn't going to end up relying on 
> my ongoing support. While my support is coming to people at no cost, I 
> am happy not answering email as soon as it arrives. When it comes time 
> to have to jump up and down to support everyone at a moment's notice, 
> I'll consider charging for my time too, but  I'm confident that my 
> hourly rate is beyond the budget of most students. I am yet to refuse 
> anyone assistance in installing R or pointing them towards the right 
> resources.
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> Sarah Jevnikar via BlindMath Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 8:18 a.m.
> To: 'Łukasz Grabowski'; blindmath at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Sarah Jevnikar
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] help with website name
> 
> Oh okay - Thanks for the clarification Lukasz. I can see this being a 
> really helpful resource after all, especially with TVI's and students 
> at all levels not eager to learn new software in addition to new 
> academic concepts. Thanks again, Sarah
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Łukasz Grabowski [mailto:graboluk at gmail.com]
> Sent: July 17, 2017 4:00 PM
> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> Cc: sarah.jevnikar at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] help with website name
> 
> Sarah, It's not about providing information, but interface :-).
> 
> The point is: imagine someone on this mail list says e.g. you can do 
> this and that using this and that software. But then you might be not 
> technically savvy enough to set up that software. If this is the case 
> then you can go to this webpage and essentially "run the software 
> through the webpage via interface tailor-made for blind users". If you 
> are technically savvy enough then the webpage won't do much for you.
> 
> In any case many thanks to everyone for useful inputs about the name
> - I gave up with the monad thing (with great regret! :-)) and settled 
> on a more generic name along the lines which were suggested (I'm not 
> announcing it just yet because I haven't bought the domain just yet 
> :-) )
> 
> I hope to have some proof of concept in two weeks or less, first for 
> latex and latexml, later for python and matlab/octave. I have further 
> plans as well, some quite ambitious :-), and indeed it's likely I will 
> look for contributors if the service ever take off, but that's 
> probably several weeks or few months from now (if ever). I'll keep the 
> list updated after I have something to share.
> 
> Best,
> Lukasz
> 
> 
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2017 15:47:01 -0400
> Sarah Jevnikar via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> > I confess I'm with Dr. Gardiner - I'm confused as to what this site 
> > would provide. I'm also concerned that diluting the amount of 
> > available information would make a difficult-to-access subject even 
> > more difficult to access.
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> > John Gardner via BlindMath
> > Sent: July 15, 2017 7:00 AM
> > To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> > Cc: John Gardner
> > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] help with website name
> > 
> > Hi, I may be just dense, but I don't get it. What will you offer 
> > that is not available on this list? If an archive of directed 
> > information is needed, I am happy to offer access2science.com as a 
> > web site to post hints and instructions. There is already a lot 
> > there, though I must admit it has not been updated enough since it 
> > was first put together. Anybody want to volunteer to join the 
> > editorial staff?
> > 
> > John Gardner
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> > Lukasz Grabowski via BlindMath
> > Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 8:06 AM
> > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > Cc: Łukasz Grabowski <graboluk at gmail.com>
> > Subject: [BlindMath] help with website name
> > 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > I will soon be starting a (paid) webservice for visually impaired 
> > STEM students, whose initial aim will be providing interfaces to 
> > open-source software which are specifically designed for visually 
> > impaired people (in case you're interested what's the service about, 
> > I describe it briefly below, but it's an early stage).
> > 
> > I spent way too much time thinking about a name :-). For now I chose 
> > Blind Monad.
> > 
> > All the guides I read about choosing the domain name suggest to 
> > check with target demographics how they like it. So - do you like 
> > it? :-) It's somewhat inspired by the name of this group.
> > 
> > The word monad has many meanings but in the branch of maths called 
> > category theory monad is something which in particular describes 
> > interactions. Similarly in computer science monad is a concept which 
> > can be used for description of user interfaces, etc. A friend told 
> > me it's a bad name because noone will know what is a monad. I get 
> > the point but perhaps on the other hand it invokes your curiosity? 
> > :-)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Here are some very early details about the service. I came up with 
> > this idea after a recent private conversation with another group 
> > member Zach - it was clear that the problem he had, producing a 
> > diagram of a biochemical reaction, can be fairly easily solved by 
> > using open-source software. But the problem is having access to 
> > linux, configuring orca or other linux screen reader correctly, 
> > learning to interact with compilers, etc.
> > 
> > So the idea is that perhaps at first one could use a web-based 
> > front-end, and then if one thinks that it's a good idea, invest time 
> > and resources into configuring their own computer. The kind of 
> > things I want to provide access to are e.g. latex and latexml, 
> > python, octave (clone of matlab), DOT language for graphs, etc.
> > plus "tailor-made" interfaces if you want to solve some specific 
> > problem quickly. When I say "tailor-made" I really mean that the 
> > user would describe the way how they would prefer to interact with 
> > the website to solve a concrete problem (e.g. producing a diagram of 
> > a biochemical reaction), and then we work together to come up with 
> > an efficient interface.
> > 
> > In other words if you're a technically savvy person there's probably 
> > not much in the above which you couldn't do yourself.
> > Also the service will not be meant to "hook you", but rather 
> > introduce you to a technology in a most efficient fashion and 
> > encourage to explore it on your own (perhaps on your own computer).
> > At a later stage I would perhaps also like to offer 1-1 "tutoring"
> > in usage of latex, octave, etc. but will see where it goes.
> > 
> > Best,
> > Lukasz
> > 
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> > 
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> 
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