[BlindMath] help with website name

Wed Jul 19 15:43:37 UTC 2017

Dear Jonathan, I didn't want to go into technical details, but part of
the service will be a VPS, i.e. 1 completely private VPS for a user. If
you sponsor this then well we can talk :-)

L

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 15:28:05 +0000
"Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath" <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> Lukasz,
> 
> Thank you for the compliments, even if they are a little over the
> top. They do not reduce my moral or philosophical objection to
> promoting a business that seeks to solve problems that do not need to
> be solved.
> 
> I offer my time freely to people in need because I believe in
> community, and the open source movement. I have been doing so on this
> list for ten years and I know there are others that have served this
> community in this manner for even longer. I do however, charge
> professional rates to businesses, government agencies, and other
> institutions as part of my professional practice. As this is a
> business venture on your behalf, I suggest to you that seeking buy-in
> from experts is something you should see as a business expense. I
> will take a look at your solution when it becomes available, but I
> will certainly not do so if it will cost me money; I won't charge
> your business for my time either because access to software is an
> interest of mine.
> 
> I will advise individuals against using a "solution" until such time
> as I see proof from verifiable experts that the solution is warranted
> and actually delivers something that is worth paying for. Perhaps if
> you had offered this service free of charge, I'd be more supportive.
> Would  you consider offering this interface to people for free over
> the next six months so that you can see if it is really warranted and
> gave the community an opportunity to evaluate it?
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> Lukasz Grabowski via BlindMath Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 12:55 a.m.
> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Łukasz Grabowski
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] help with website name
> 
> Jonathan, I started to write a long response, but at the end of the
> day decided just to write this for now: I understand some of your
> objections, but I promise you that you will like it :-) ! 
> 
> In particular, I really put some serious thought into architecture,
> and making sure that everything will be geared towards letting the
> users run things by themselves, if they are so inclined. I don't want
> to go into details, but if you want me to convince you, please find
> me on skype (user graboluka), and I'd be happy to go into technical
> details.
> 
> (obviously I would rather have people like you or, say, T.V. Raman
> "on my side", as I value your contribution _enormously_. But I think
> you might be seeing things through your own experience of, you know,
> being a brilliant and successful scientist, which does not
> necessarily correspond to the "needs of the masses")
> 
> Best,
> Lukasz
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 01:30:07 +0000
> "Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath" <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> > Hello all,
> > 
> > I'm keen to improve the ability of bind people to access software
> > in a general sense, but I'm curious about this initiative's ability
> > to actually help.
> > 
> > My concern is that if someone is not "savvy" enough to set up some
> > of the software used as examples, then they are probably not ready
> > to use that software. I note for example, that Python and Octave
> > get a mention. I've never heard of anyone having issues with the 
> > installation of either, but I have heard of people not knowing
> > which way to run the software or do the work required. Use of an
> > alternative interface does not solve the real problem here. The
> > same is true for LaTeX where none of the default editors shipped
> > with the standard installers for Windows are accessible.
> > 
> > Furthermore, until I see a demonstration, I am loathed to offer
> > people hope that the proposed solution will actually work without
> > introducing an extra layer of possible problems. Web interfaces for
> > STEM software have repeatedly let us down in the past. Consider the
> > discussions about various notebook-oriented solutions in particular.
> > 
> > I am a firm believer in giving people solutions that work, and
> > making it easy to use the solutions includes making sure it is easy
> > to set up the software in the first place. I would be extremely
> > disappointed to see anyone pay for a service that is unnecessary,
> > just because they don't know how to do the installation or know how
> > to ask this community for help. I would include such software in
> > this list as R, Maxima, Octave, Python, and SAS to name just a few.
> > 
> > I would note that there is plenty of good advice in the list
> > archives, and on a variety of webpages being mentioned as part of
> > this thread. There is also an unfortunate tendency of people to
> > state software is "not accessible" when they haven't got it to work
> > for them, or worse, overstating the accessibility of software
> > without adequate testing. We need the most up to date information
> > on so many applications; I don't have the energy or expertise to
> > manage reviews of more than the statistical software and any other
> > tools I actually do use. I would like to see for example, I page on
> > mathematical software that is like the one I manage for statistical
> > software.
> > 
> > Finally, I would hope that anyone setting up a  service is in the
> > best position to offer advice from an expert point of view. To me,
> > that includes a thorough consideration of the sense of using a
> > particular tool. For example, Doug comments that Octave is slower
> > than Matlab for running large computationally intensive jobs. Given
> > he is interested in this particular aspect for his work and I'm
> > not, I rely on his expertise on that specific topic. I could teach
> > someone to use minitab for example, but I know that the
> > accessibility issues are so great that overcoming them is not a
> > smart move even though it is possible. I won't take money off
> > people to help them use Minitab because I can't offer them a long
> > term solution that isn't going to end up relying on my ongoing
> > support. While my support is coming to people at no cost, I am
> > happy not answering email as soon as it arrives. When it comes time
> > to have to jump up and down to support everyone at a moment's
> > notice, I'll consider charging for my time too, but  I'm confident
> > that my hourly rate is beyond the budget of most students. I am yet
> > to refuse anyone assistance in installing R or pointing them
> > towards the right resources.
> > 
> > Jonathan
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> > Sarah Jevnikar via BlindMath Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 8:18 a.m.
> > To: 'Łukasz Grabowski'; blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > Cc: Sarah Jevnikar
> > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] help with website name
> > 
> > Oh okay - Thanks for the clarification Lukasz. I can see this being
> > a really helpful resource after all, especially with TVI's and
> > students at all levels not eager to learn new software in addition
> > to new academic concepts. Thanks again, Sarah
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Łukasz Grabowski [mailto:graboluk at gmail.com]
> > Sent: July 17, 2017 4:00 PM
> > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > Cc: sarah.jevnikar at gmail.com
> > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] help with website name
> > 
> > Sarah, It's not about providing information, but interface :-).
> > 
> > The point is: imagine someone on this mail list says e.g. you can
> > do this and that using this and that software. But then you might
> > be not technically savvy enough to set up that software. If this is
> > the case then you can go to this webpage and essentially "run the
> > software through the webpage via interface tailor-made for blind
> > users". If you are technically savvy enough then the webpage won't
> > do much for you.
> > 
> > In any case many thanks to everyone for useful inputs about the name
> > - I gave up with the monad thing (with great regret! :-)) and
> > settled on a more generic name along the lines which were suggested
> > (I'm not announcing it just yet because I haven't bought the domain
> > just yet :-) )
> > 
> > I hope to have some proof of concept in two weeks or less, first
> > for latex and latexml, later for python and matlab/octave. I have
> > further plans as well, some quite ambitious :-), and indeed it's
> > likely I will look for contributors if the service ever take off,
> > but that's probably several weeks or few months from now (if ever).
> > I'll keep the list updated after I have something to share.
> > 
> > Best,
> > Lukasz
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 17 Jul 2017 15:47:01 -0400
> > Sarah Jevnikar via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >   
> > > I confess I'm with Dr. Gardiner - I'm confused as to what this
> > > site would provide. I'm also concerned that diluting the amount
> > > of available information would make a difficult-to-access subject
> > > even more difficult to access.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> > > Of John Gardner via BlindMath
> > > Sent: July 15, 2017 7:00 AM
> > > To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> > > Cc: John Gardner
> > > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] help with website name
> > > 
> > > Hi, I may be just dense, but I don't get it. What will you offer 
> > > that is not available on this list? If an archive of directed 
> > > information is needed, I am happy to offer access2science.com as
> > > a web site to post hints and instructions. There is already a lot 
> > > there, though I must admit it has not been updated enough since
> > > it was first put together. Anybody want to volunteer to join the 
> > > editorial staff?
> > > 
> > > John Gardner
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> > > Of Lukasz Grabowski via BlindMath
> > > Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 8:06 AM
> > > To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> > > Cc: Łukasz Grabowski <graboluk at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: [BlindMath] help with website name
> > > 
> > > Hi all,
> > > 
> > > I will soon be starting a (paid) webservice for visually impaired 
> > > STEM students, whose initial aim will be providing interfaces to 
> > > open-source software which are specifically designed for visually 
> > > impaired people (in case you're interested what's the service
> > > about, I describe it briefly below, but it's an early stage).
> > > 
> > > I spent way too much time thinking about a name :-). For now I
> > > chose Blind Monad.
> > > 
> > > All the guides I read about choosing the domain name suggest to 
> > > check with target demographics how they like it. So - do you like 
> > > it? :-) It's somewhat inspired by the name of this group.
> > > 
> > > The word monad has many meanings but in the branch of maths
> > > called category theory monad is something which in particular
> > > describes interactions. Similarly in computer science monad is a
> > > concept which can be used for description of user interfaces,
> > > etc. A friend told me it's a bad name because noone will know
> > > what is a monad. I get the point but perhaps on the other hand it
> > > invokes your curiosity? :-)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Here are some very early details about the service. I came up
> > > with this idea after a recent private conversation with another
> > > group member Zach - it was clear that the problem he had,
> > > producing a diagram of a biochemical reaction, can be fairly
> > > easily solved by using open-source software. But the problem is
> > > having access to linux, configuring orca or other linux screen
> > > reader correctly, learning to interact with compilers, etc.
> > > 
> > > So the idea is that perhaps at first one could use a web-based 
> > > front-end, and then if one thinks that it's a good idea, invest
> > > time and resources into configuring their own computer. The kind
> > > of things I want to provide access to are e.g. latex and latexml, 
> > > python, octave (clone of matlab), DOT language for graphs, etc.
> > > plus "tailor-made" interfaces if you want to solve some specific 
> > > problem quickly. When I say "tailor-made" I really mean that the 
> > > user would describe the way how they would prefer to interact
> > > with the website to solve a concrete problem (e.g. producing a
> > > diagram of a biochemical reaction), and then we work together to
> > > come up with an efficient interface.
> > > 
> > > In other words if you're a technically savvy person there's
> > > probably not much in the above which you couldn't do yourself.
> > > Also the service will not be meant to "hook you", but rather 
> > > introduce you to a technology in a most efficient fashion and 
> > > encourage to explore it on your own (perhaps on your own
> > > computer). At a later stage I would perhaps also like to offer
> > > 1-1 "tutoring" in usage of latex, octave, etc. but will see where
> > > it goes.
> > > 
> > > Best,
> > > Lukasz
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > BlindMath at nfbnet.org
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> > > 40
> > > orst.e
> > > du
> > > BlindMath Gems can be found at
> > > <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > r%
> > > 40gmai
> > > l.com
> > > BlindMath Gems can be found at
> > > <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > <http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>  
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> 
> 
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