[BlindMath] Godel Escher Bach

Wed Apr 18 04:18:20 UTC 2018

Were you at UT in Austin?  

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sabra Ewing via BlindMath
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 11:40 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sabra Ewing <sabra1023 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Godel Escher Bach

I was on some websites that use math ML. My phone was reading it great, But my computer was not detecting yet for some reason. Amanda doesn't actually have a TTvi since she is a computer science grad, but I think she would be good to field test your device because she is actually really good at math instead of just a student trying to take some classes. I have had many problems with PDF books where they would not scan. Granted, I heard there is some thousands of dollars specialized software that can scan math, but I don't have that. I was just using regular OCR software. When I was in school with Amanda, we had a lot of issues getting accessible materials. It turned out that a professor we knew had to start typing everything up. It really sucked. When I was in school on my own without Amanda, I could not even get that. No one at the New school could type mathematical formulas on the computer. I am not kidding. This was a four-year university with tons of math professors and programmers and no one could type formulas on the computer. I am like, if you can type these formulas as a part of a programming language, then you can type them to me, but they wouldn't listen. I had to get someone to record parts of the textbook in the end. I barely passed my math classes. I even typed up some of the formulas after listening to them on the recording and showed them to one of my professors, who was convinced that I had invented a special code and written in a way that only made sense to me. However, I sent the formulas to other people for testing purposes and they could read them fine. They were not typed in any type of markup language. They were just typed the way that you would put them in on a spreadsheet or the way you would put them in if you were using any standard programming language if that makes sense. I also hope that publishers become required to provide audio described the content. I made a D in biology the first time and I had to retake it where I made a C because it was an online course. It had a lot of videos about fossils and how one animal evolved into another like how did Lindsey evolve and stuff like that, but the videos it did not have any type of description so even though I watched them, I could not understand anything about them. I might have also benefited from a 3-D model that could show me these things. Humans evolved from sea sponges according to this course, and it is all about shapes to understand how they evolved if that makes sense. I have no idea how to find such a thing though because the model would have to be able to move. I agree with Amanda. It is pretty sad that I have wasted so much time in life because of inaccessible materials. I know that for some of you, it gives you hope to look toward a future where things will be better and definitely keep doing that, but that can still be really frustrating to people who still do not have a present solution. All of these things that are supposedly coming out in the future do not help us now. And I also wish that someone would find a way to get access to people who have difficulties with tactile graphs, which is true of many people who were born blind. Literally the only thing that I remember about my math courses is how to do vectors, and that one was not taught using a tactile graph. I wish all of my lessons could've been taught the way the vector one was.

Sabra Ewing

> On Apr 17, 2018, at 7:00 PM, White, Jason J via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, Bookshare is not a producer. It's better regarded as a distribution service for books obtained from publishers and from scanned materials. There is a provision for volunteers to assist in correcting errors (including accessibility problems) found in books.
> 
> Most of my (admittedly non-mathematical) reading comes from Bookshare these days, apart from the journal literature. It's an excellent service, but it isn't the same kind of service as a conventional braille or audio book producer.
> 
> The only strategy likely to work in the short term, and Bookshare is probably pursuing it already, is to try to reach agreements with publishers to obtain source files in an XML/MathML-based format, or LaTeX, or even Microsoft Word - depending on what the publisher has in each case. I would accept LaTeX as a delivery format in preference to something that is completely inaccessible, although screen readers nowadays offer enough support for MathML potentially to make that viable as well.
> 
> On 4/17/18, 17:04, "BlindMath on behalf of Peter Donahue via BlindMath" <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org on behalf of blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
>    Hello Amanda and everyone,
> 
>    This is what happens when Braille producers don't proofread their
>    transcriptions. Bookshare.org is one of the worst offenders! My wife reads
>    lots of books in their collection and has been appalled whenever she reads
>    books riddled with errors. She's an NLS Braille Proofreader and appreciates
>    the value of good clean Braille transcriptions. Some would say that
>    poorly-produced Braille is better than none at all. Both of us would say
>    "Not when it comes to blind students being able to complete class
>    assignments on time or fail tests due to inaccurate Braille transcriptions."
>    Assuming you got those books from Bookshare.org complain loudly! Some of us
>    have brought other matters to their attention and they have done zilch about
>    them. Let's get over feeling greatful for bad Braille transcriptions and
>    demand a higher standard of performance from these outfits!
> 
>    Peter Donahue
> 
> 
>    -----Original Message-----
>    From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amanda
>    Lacy via BlindMath
>    Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:59 PM
>    To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>    Cc: Amanda Lacy
>    Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Godel Escher Bach
> 
>    Missing exponents (2 squared becomes 22), missing parens, etc.
> 
>    I'm also trying to read Artificial Intelligence, a Modern Approach
>    where I'm encountering these same (tiring) issues.
>    My sighted friend can't even read the Bookshare version that well, so
>    it's more than a screenreader issue.
> 
>    And 2 squared isn't 22 no matter how much they might like it to be!
> 
>>    On 4/17/18, Sabra Ewing via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> They were not fantastic about it with me. Every time I try to get a 
>> math textbook from them, it was not accessible. The equations we're 
>> not exactly removed, but it is hard to describe what they are like. 
>> Amanda was there though. She can tell you what they were like. Book share never fixed it.
>> 
>> Sabra Ewing
>> 
>>> On Apr 17, 2018, at 11:32 AM, Sina Bahram via BlindMath 
>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> If you let bookshare know through the form on their website, they 
>>> are fantastic about rescanning/correcting the book.
>>> 
>>> President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
>>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>> Company Website: 
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>>> 4a6be44%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636595958424080
>>> 270&sdata=kgfSyye8f5VLcthj5NsZoUUoUu9ugNEwMFYd186PdpY%3D&reserved=0
>>> Personal Website: 
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>>> D&reserved=0
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Amanda 
>>> Lacy via BlindMath
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 1:12 PM
>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics 
>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Amanda Lacy <lacy925 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [BlindMath] Godel Escher Bach
>>> 
>>> Does anyone know where to get an accessible version of this book?
>>> 
>>> I was enjoying it until around the chapter on recursion. At that 
>>> point the text version I found contained gibberish where the 
>>> theorems should be.
>>> The Bookshare version was just as useless; it left them out altogether.
>>> How'd you like to read, "...and when you combine theorem removed 
>>> with theorem removed..."
>>> 
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