[BlindMath] Godel Escher Bach

Wed Apr 18 16:29:32 UTC 2018

I was at UT Austin. I wouldn't return. I don't have a TBI (whatever
that is) and I'm not a student.

On 4/17/18, Vincent Martin via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Were you at UT in Austin?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sabra Ewing via
> BlindMath
> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 11:40 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sabra Ewing <sabra1023 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Godel Escher Bach
>
> I was on some websites that use math ML. My phone was reading it great, But
> my computer was not detecting yet for some reason. Amanda doesn't actually
> have a TTvi since she is a computer science grad, but I think she would be
> good to field test your device because she is actually really good at math
> instead of just a student trying to take some classes. I have had many
> problems with PDF books where they would not scan. Granted, I heard there is
> some thousands of dollars specialized software that can scan math, but I
> don't have that. I was just using regular OCR software. When I was in school
> with Amanda, we had a lot of issues getting accessible materials. It turned
> out that a professor we knew had to start typing everything up. It really
> sucked. When I was in school on my own without Amanda, I could not even get
> that. No one at the New school could type mathematical formulas on the
> computer. I am not kidding. This was a four-year university with tons of
> math professors and programmers and no one could type formulas on the
> computer. I am like, if you can type these formulas as a part of a
> programming language, then you can type them to me, but they wouldn't
> listen. I had to get someone to record parts of the textbook in the end. I
> barely passed my math classes. I even typed up some of the formulas after
> listening to them on the recording and showed them to one of my professors,
> who was convinced that I had invented a special code and written in a way
> that only made sense to me. However, I sent the formulas to other people for
> testing purposes and they could read them fine. They were not typed in any
> type of markup language. They were just typed the way that you would put
> them in on a spreadsheet or the way you would put them in if you were using
> any standard programming language if that makes sense. I also hope that
> publishers become required to provide audio described the content. I made a
> D in biology the first time and I had to retake it where I made a C because
> it was an online course. It had a lot of videos about fossils and how one
> animal evolved into another like how did Lindsey evolve and stuff like that,
> but the videos it did not have any type of description so even though I
> watched them, I could not understand anything about them. I might have also
> benefited from a 3-D model that could show me these things. Humans evolved
> from sea sponges according to this course, and it is all about shapes to
> understand how they evolved if that makes sense. I have no idea how to find
> such a thing though because the model would have to be able to move. I agree
> with Amanda. It is pretty sad that I have wasted so much time in life
> because of inaccessible materials. I know that for some of you, it gives you
> hope to look toward a future where things will be better and definitely keep
> doing that, but that can still be really frustrating to people who still do
> not have a present solution. All of these things that are supposedly coming
> out in the future do not help us now. And I also wish that someone would
> find a way to get access to people who have difficulties with tactile
> graphs, which is true of many people who were born blind. Literally the only
> thing that I remember about my math courses is how to do vectors, and that
> one was not taught using a tactile graph. I wish all of my lessons could've
> been taught the way the vector one was.
>
> Sabra Ewing
>
>> On Apr 17, 2018, at 7:00 PM, White, Jason J via BlindMath
>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> To the best of my knowledge, Bookshare is not a producer. It's better
>> regarded as a distribution service for books obtained from publishers and
>> from scanned materials. There is a provision for volunteers to assist in
>> correcting errors (including accessibility problems) found in books.
>>
>> Most of my (admittedly non-mathematical) reading comes from Bookshare
>> these days, apart from the journal literature. It's an excellent service,
>> but it isn't the same kind of service as a conventional braille or audio
>> book producer.
>>
>> The only strategy likely to work in the short term, and Bookshare is
>> probably pursuing it already, is to try to reach agreements with
>> publishers to obtain source files in an XML/MathML-based format, or LaTeX,
>> or even Microsoft Word - depending on what the publisher has in each case.
>> I would accept LaTeX as a delivery format in preference to something that
>> is completely inaccessible, although screen readers nowadays offer enough
>> support for MathML potentially to make that viable as well.
>>
>> On 4/17/18, 17:04, "BlindMath on behalf of Peter Donahue via BlindMath"
>> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org on behalf of blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>>    Hello Amanda and everyone,
>>
>>    This is what happens when Braille producers don't proofread their
>>    transcriptions. Bookshare.org is one of the worst offenders! My wife
>> reads
>>    lots of books in their collection and has been appalled whenever she
>> reads
>>    books riddled with errors. She's an NLS Braille Proofreader and
>> appreciates
>>    the value of good clean Braille transcriptions. Some would say that
>>    poorly-produced Braille is better than none at all. Both of us would
>> say
>>    "Not when it comes to blind students being able to complete class
>>    assignments on time or fail tests due to inaccurate Braille
>> transcriptions."
>>    Assuming you got those books from Bookshare.org complain loudly! Some
>> of us
>>    have brought other matters to their attention and they have done zilch
>> about
>>    them. Let's get over feeling greatful for bad Braille transcriptions
>> and
>>    demand a higher standard of performance from these outfits!
>>
>>    Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>>    -----Original Message-----
>>    From: BlindMath [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Amanda
>>    Lacy via BlindMath
>>    Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:59 PM
>>    To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>    Cc: Amanda Lacy
>>    Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Godel Escher Bach
>>
>>    Missing exponents (2 squared becomes 22), missing parens, etc.
>>
>>    I'm also trying to read Artificial Intelligence, a Modern Approach
>>    where I'm encountering these same (tiring) issues.
>>    My sighted friend can't even read the Bookshare version that well, so
>>    it's more than a screenreader issue.
>>
>>    And 2 squared isn't 22 no matter how much they might like it to be!
>>
>>>    On 4/17/18, Sabra Ewing via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> They were not fantastic about it with me. Every time I try to get a
>>> math textbook from them, it was not accessible. The equations we're
>>> not exactly removed, but it is hard to describe what they are like.
>>> Amanda was there though. She can tell you what they were like. Book share
>>> never fixed it.
>>>
>>> Sabra Ewing
>>>
>>>> On Apr 17, 2018, at 11:32 AM, Sina Bahram via BlindMath
>>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you let bookshare know through the form on their website, they
>>>> are fantastic about rescanning/correcting the book.
>>>>
>>>> President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
>>>> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>>>> Company Website:
>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww
>>>> .pac.bz&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cbab81a069720455285a808d5a
>>>> 4a6be44%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636595958424080
>>>> 270&sdata=kgfSyye8f5VLcthj5NsZoUUoUu9ugNEwMFYd186PdpY%3D&reserved=0
>>>> Personal Website:
>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww
>>>> .sinabahram.com&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cbab81a06972045528
>>>> 5a808d5a4a6be44%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C6365959
>>>> 58424080270&sdata=H0oQStcuDBipdRj9fxUXeCsqee7LEYFPZ8xyJsicDyY%3D&res
>>>> erved=0
>>>> Blog:
>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblo
>>>> g.SinaBahram.com&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cbab81a0697204552
>>>> 85a808d5a4a6be44%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636595
>>>> 958424080270&sdata=cdcKymRzP5nQfvjpiFZB0%2FIkqFWZ%2FfLJVRlUhQsSOGY%3
>>>> D&reserved=0
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Amanda
>>>> Lacy via BlindMath
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 1:12 PM
>>>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
>>>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Amanda Lacy <lacy925 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: [BlindMath] Godel Escher Bach
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know where to get an accessible version of this book?
>>>>
>>>> I was enjoying it until around the chapter on recursion. At that
>>>> point the text version I found contained gibberish where the
>>>> theorems should be.
>>>> The Bookshare version was just as useless; it left them out altogether.
>>>> How'd you like to read, "...and when you combine theorem removed
>>>> with theorem removed..."
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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