[BlindMath] What is your experience reading LaTeX source?

Sat Jan 12 10:18:03 UTC 2019

Hi Doug,

Unfortunately, WinTriangle only works in Windows XP because it was never 
updated. I still carry a Windows Xp computer in addition to a Windows 10 
one in order to use it. Having to do this is a nuisance, but I still do 
it because the efficiency I gain by not having to read or edit LaTex 
directly all the time is huge.

For me personally, the bottom line is to use tools that allow me to 
focus on the content of the equations and work efficiently. So I find 
this a totally worthwhile trade off without any doubt. Other people may 
see it differently. But I would say that if you're reading LaTex 
documents on a very regular basis, then chances are that you'll be glad 
if you give the WinTriangle system a try even at the cost of having to 
get Windows XP on your computer. If on the other hand you're reading 
other people's LaTex files very rarely, then it may not necessarily be a 
good trade off.

In case you decide to still go ahead and give it a try, then I can walk 
you through the steps involved in making it work on Windows XP.

On a different note, I have come to the conclusion that until Math Type 
based conversion tools develop the sophistication to handle a large 
variety of LaTex commands, we need to upgrade WinTriangle so that it can 
work in Windows 10. Yes, it's an old system that is supposed to have 
died a long time back with the arrival of new technology, but 
unfortunately, the new technology isn't there yet, notwithstanding all 
the hype. Basically, any solution that requires people to spend a lot of 
time reading through other people's LaTex code is a very flawed and 
inefficient approach, no matter how poplar it may be.

  Aqil

On 1/11/2019 9:50 PM, Doug and Molly Miron via BlindMath wrote:
> Good day,
>
>
> I tried to install Wintriangle but got a notice that I needed a .net 
> framework, so I clicked on the button to get one.  However, I 
> apparently didn't choose the right one because the wintriangle 
> installer still wouldn't run.  Does anyone want to give me a 
> step-by-step procedure?  I'm using Windows 10.
>
>
> I'm a fairly recent learner and user of LaTeX.  I use the simplest 
> form possible to write my equations and use the MathType converter to 
> give MathPlayer-readable equations.  I've converted a couple of source 
> files for published papers that the author kindly provided, but did 
> this by deleting all the excess formatting which MathType wouldn't 
> convert anyway.  I didn't find this too tedious an approach, but 
> that's because I didn't do it much.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Doug Miron
>
>
> On 1/11/2019 2:02 PM, Aqil Sajjad via BlindMath wrote:
>> Ok, I should have phrased that 'bottom line' sentence slightly 
>> differently. But the overall point is still fully valid. I am a 
>> research level blind physicist and read papers from arxiv all the 
>> time. And most of the time I am able to do this either with zero or 
>> minimal time wasted on reading or editing the original LaTex code. 
>> The reason: I choose to work with technology that allows me to do this.
>>
>> Yes, several blind mathematicians read LaTex code directly. But that 
>> hardly means it is not a very inefficient way to read math. There is 
>> a reason why sighted people generally read the compiled pdf instead 
>> of reading the LaTex source code directly. The difference is like 
>> going to a website and reading the html source code with all the 
>> formatting junk instead of reading the actual website on display. One 
>> can of course read the source code but one wouldn't normally do that 
>> as a first choice unless one really has to. And this isn't merely a 
>> matter of personal preference but has to do with the fact that if you 
>> have to read through all those formatting commands which aren't 
>> related to the content, then it's distracting and makes reading 
>> inefficient.
>>
>> Now, coming to the point about the inability of LaTex to MathML 
>> converters to cleanly produce good MathML without requiring one to 
>> edit the source code. I haven't worked with MathMl conversion because 
>> I haven't been able to get one working, honestly. I have however done 
>> some experimentation with LaTex to MathType convertors, and yes, the 
>> results are mixed. It's true that things don't always convert well to 
>> Math Type without having to edit the source code. But then this only 
>> means that these tools aren't quite there yet despite all the 
>> excessive hype around MathML and Math Type on these forums. It does 
>> not mean that reading LaTex directly should be the way to go.
>>
>> As I I wrote in the previous e-mail, I use an old tool called 
>> WinTriangle for reading LaTex documents because it allows conversion 
>> to a clutter-free format with much less work. Yes, I do have to edit 
>> the source code sometimes in order to make it convert correctly. But 
>> most of the time
>> I am able to simply convert it to WinTriangle without having to open 
>> the LaTex source code at all. Apart from the arxiv, this also applies 
>> to documents obtained by scanning something and converting it to 
>> LaTex through infty reader. They mostly convert nicely to WinTriangle 
>> without one having to even open the LaTex source code. This allows me 
>> to focus on reading the real content without having to waste time 
>> reading through all the clutter in the LaTex code.
>>
>> So here is the revised bottom line: One doesn't and shouldn't have to 
>> spent a lot of time reading through the formatting mess in the LaTex 
>> source code in order to read math. Sighted people don't do it and we 
>> shouldn't have to do it either. If we're doing it, then we're using 
>> the wrong technology and lowering our efficiency.
>>
>>
>> On 1/11/2019 8:55 AM, John G Heim via BlindMath wrote:
>>> Yeah, I didn't see that in the original post but I write all my own 
>>> latex by hand. Every document I create for any reason, whether it is 
>>> for work or for one of the non-profits I am involved in, is written 
>>> in latex by hand. Then I convert it to pdf and send it out.
>>>
>>> I used to teach a mini-course in latex for grad students at the Math 
>>> Department at the University Of Wisconsin. We dropped it a long time 
>>> ago because grad students come in already knowing latex.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/11/19 6:48 AM, Łukasz Grabowski via BlindMath wrote:
>>>> The bottom line cited below is not quite true:
>>>>
>>>> "Bottom line: with several available alternatives, no one should have
>>>> to read LaTex source code directly unless they really want to torture
>>>> themselves."
>>>>
>>>> I know it for a fact that blind professional mathematicians read latex
>>>> directly. If you don't believe, I suggest going to arxiv.org,
>>>> downloading latex source for some new mathematical article and trying
>>>> to convert it to mathml.
>>>>
>>>> The effect likely will be that no matter what software you use you 
>>>> will
>>>> have to spend first a substantial amount of time editing the source 
>>>> code
>>>> just to make your software parse the source. And even if you do 
>>>> succeed
>>>> (which is FAR from given as not all latex pakcages will be implemented
>>>> in your conversion software)) afterwards you will also surely need to
>>>> consult latex source anyway while reading mathml.
>>>>
>>>> Having said that, this is about professional cutting edge mathematical
>>>> research. For the purpose of high school students or early university
>>>> (basic calculus, statistics, etc.), there is probably indeed no need,
>>>> as there are good quality mathml materials available.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Lukasz
>>>>
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