[BlindMath] What is your experience reading LaTeX source?
Doug and Molly Miron
mndmrn at hbci.com
Sun Jan 13 16:49:25 UTC 2019
Thanks again,Auil.---Doug
On 1/13/2019 4:11 AM, Aqil Sajjad via BlindMath wrote:
> Ok, here are the instructions. I have tried to be as explicit and
> detailed as possible, but I may still have left something out. So feel
> free to ask if you have any questions. Since WinTriangle and the
> LaTex-to-triangle converter don't seem to be available on-line any
> more, I just put them in my public dropbox folder. Follow these steps:
>
> 1. Download this rar file and uncompress it.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/b92okjrfpi220qb/WinTriangle-full-package.rar?dl=0
>
>
> 2. You will get 3 folders inside the uncompressed package. First, open
> the SAPI51 folder and run the Sapi51.exe file. This will install the
> microsoft SAPI speech engine which is used by WinTriangle.
>
> 2. Open the Wintriangle3.0.0.a folder. Go to fonts. Inside it, you
> will find a file titled triangle.ttf. Copy this file into your
> c:\WINDOWS\Fonts
> folder.
>
> 3. Now, go back to the Wintriangle3.0.0.a folder. Inside it, there is
> a file named triangle.exe. If you run this file, it will execute the
> triangle program. The program doesn't exactly have an installation.
> You can put a short cut to this file in your desktop or programs menu
> if you want to run it directly without having to go to the exact
> folder every time.
>
> 4. The WinTriangle program is basically a text editor with speech. But
> it has Greek letters and mathematical symbols in a special linear
> notation modeled after LaTex. But the idea is to simplify the notation
> and replace LaTex commands with single characters and do away with
> display related formatting commands. Secondly, there are convenient
> hot keys for typing all these characters. You can find all the special
> characters and hot keys in the insert menue. Or you can just press alt
> i and it will bring up 3 sets of lists that you can tab between.
>
> For example, for a fraction, there is a starting character which the
> program reads as "fraction" instead of \frac{. The end of the
> numerator and start of the denominator is represented by a
> "denominator" character. The end of the fraction is represented by a
> an "end fraction" character. Pressing alt comma types all three
> characters at once with the curser at the place where you would insert
> the numerator.
>
> I should mention that the equations do not display as regular print.
> The Greek letters do show correctly, but the fractions, square roots,
> vector symbols etc look a bit different from regular print. So this
> may not necessarily be the software to use if you're trying to create
> documents for others.
>
> That said, many sighted people will easily be able to read this once
> you give them an orientation to this notation. And this was the whole
> idea. That while this wasn't exactly like regular print, it was simple
> enough that blind students would be able to share their work with
> their teachers without the need of a transcriber in between. I used
> this for all my undergraduate studies and my teachers were always able
> to read my homework solutions and exams in this notation. When I
> started my graduate level research, I switched to LaTex for writing
> and now only use WinTriangle for reading or for giving presentations.
>
> 5. Now back to reading in WinTriangle. Mainly, you would use the aero
> keys and WinTriangle will read out the new character or line you
> arrive on. There are a couple of other hot keys that are useful. For
> example,
>
> Control r reads the line.
> Alt right aero reads the character the curser is on.
> Pressing alt right aero twice gives you the character phonetically .
>
> 6. Now, let's get to reading a LaTex document. For this, you want to
> install the Ltx to triangle converter. Go to the "LaTex to Tri" folder
> in the package and run the executable file. This will bring up the
> install shield so go ahead and install the program. It should appear
> in your programs menue like any other installed program.
>
> 7. Open the LaTex to triangle converter. Go inside the file menu and
> choose open. Now, select the folder where you have your LaTex document
> and open it. This creates an rtf file for the LaTex document in the
> same folder. You now want to open this file in WinTriangle and this
> will allow you to read it. So go back to WinTriangle, press control o,
> browse to the relevant folder and open the document. And now you can
> just navigate through it and read it without any of the formatting
> clutter you have to go through while reading the LaTex source code.
>
>
>
> On 1/12/2019 9:36 AM, Doug and Molly Miron via BlindMath wrote:
>
>> Thanks. I do have a WinXP box which I bought so I could run an old
>> but accessible version of MatLab. Maybe I'll give it a try.---Doug
>>
>> On 1/12/2019 4:18 AM, Aqil Sajjad via BlindMath wrote:
>>> Hi Doug,
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, WinTriangle only works in Windows XP because it was
>>> never updated. I still carry a Windows Xp computer in addition to a
>>> Windows 10 one in order to use it. Having to do this is a nuisance,
>>> but I still do it because the efficiency I gain by not having to
>>> read or edit LaTex directly all the time is huge.
>>>
>>>
>>> For me personally, the bottom line is to use tools that allow me to
>>> focus on the content of the equations and work efficiently. So I
>>> find this a totally worthwhile trade off without any doubt. Other
>>> people may see it differently. But I would say that if you're
>>> reading LaTex documents on a very regular basis, then chances are
>>> that you'll be glad if you give the WinTriangle system a try even at
>>> the cost of having to get Windows XP on your computer. If on the
>>> other hand you're reading other people's LaTex files very rarely,
>>> then it may not necessarily be a good trade off.
>>>
>>> In case you decide to still go ahead and give it a try, then I can
>>> walk you through the steps involved in making it work on Windows XP.
>>>
>>> On a different note, I have come to the conclusion that until Math
>>> Type based conversion tools develop the sophistication to handle a
>>> large variety of LaTex commands, we need to upgrade WinTriangle so
>>> that it can work in Windows 10. Yes, it's an old system that is
>>> supposed to have died a long time back with the arrival of new
>>> technology, but unfortunately, the new technology isn't there yet,
>>> notwithstanding all the hype. Basically, any solution that requires
>>> people to spend a lot of time reading through other people's LaTex
>>> code is a very flawed and inefficient approach, no matter how poplar
>>> it may be.
>>>
>>>
>>> Aqil
>>>
>>> On 1/11/2019 9:50 PM, Doug and Molly Miron via BlindMath wrote:
>>>> Good day,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I tried to install Wintriangle but got a notice that I needed a
>>>> .net framework, so I clicked on the button to get one. However, I
>>>> apparently didn't choose the right one because the wintriangle
>>>> installer still wouldn't run. Does anyone want to give me a
>>>> step-by-step procedure? I'm using Windows 10.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm a fairly recent learner and user of LaTeX. I use the simplest
>>>> form possible to write my equations and use the MathType converter
>>>> to give MathPlayer-readable equations. I've converted a couple of
>>>> source files for published papers that the author kindly provided,
>>>> but did this by deleting all the excess formatting which MathType
>>>> wouldn't convert anyway. I didn't find this too tedious an
>>>> approach, but that's because I didn't do it much.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Doug Miron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/11/2019 2:02 PM, Aqil Sajjad via BlindMath wrote:
>>>>> Ok, I should have phrased that 'bottom line' sentence slightly
>>>>> differently. But the overall point is still fully valid. I am a
>>>>> research level blind physicist and read papers from arxiv all the
>>>>> time. And most of the time I am able to do this either with zero
>>>>> or minimal time wasted on reading or editing the original LaTex
>>>>> code. The reason: I choose to work with technology that allows me
>>>>> to do this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, several blind mathematicians read LaTex code directly. But
>>>>> that hardly means it is not a very inefficient way to read math.
>>>>> There is a reason why sighted people generally read the compiled
>>>>> pdf instead of reading the LaTex source code directly. The
>>>>> difference is like going to a website and reading the html source
>>>>> code with all the formatting junk instead of reading the actual
>>>>> website on display. One can of course read the source code but one
>>>>> wouldn't normally do that as a first choice unless one really has
>>>>> to. And this isn't merely a matter of personal preference but has
>>>>> to do with the fact that if you have to read through all those
>>>>> formatting commands which aren't related to the content, then it's
>>>>> distracting and makes reading inefficient.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, coming to the point about the inability of LaTex to MathML
>>>>> converters to cleanly produce good MathML without requiring one to
>>>>> edit the source code. I haven't worked with MathMl conversion
>>>>> because I haven't been able to get one working, honestly. I have
>>>>> however done some experimentation with LaTex to MathType
>>>>> convertors, and yes, the results are mixed. It's true that things
>>>>> don't always convert well to Math Type without having to edit the
>>>>> source code. But then this only means that these tools aren't
>>>>> quite there yet despite all the excessive hype around MathML and
>>>>> Math Type on these forums. It does not mean that reading LaTex
>>>>> directly should be the way to go.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I I wrote in the previous e-mail, I use an old tool called
>>>>> WinTriangle for reading LaTex documents because it allows
>>>>> conversion to a clutter-free format with much less work. Yes, I do
>>>>> have to edit the source code sometimes in order to make it convert
>>>>> correctly. But most of the time
>>>>> I am able to simply convert it to WinTriangle without having to
>>>>> open the LaTex source code at all. Apart from the arxiv, this also
>>>>> applies to documents obtained by scanning something and converting
>>>>> it to LaTex through infty reader. They mostly convert nicely to
>>>>> WinTriangle without one having to even open the LaTex source code.
>>>>> This allows me to focus on reading the real content without having
>>>>> to waste time reading through all the clutter in the LaTex code.
>>>>>
>>>>> So here is the revised bottom line: One doesn't and shouldn't have
>>>>> to spent a lot of time reading through the formatting mess in the
>>>>> LaTex source code in order to read math. Sighted people don't do
>>>>> it and we shouldn't have to do it either. If we're doing it, then
>>>>> we're using the wrong technology and lowering our efficiency.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/11/2019 8:55 AM, John G Heim via BlindMath wrote:
>>>>>> Yeah, I didn't see that in the original post but I write all my
>>>>>> own latex by hand. Every document I create for any reason,
>>>>>> whether it is for work or for one of the non-profits I am
>>>>>> involved in, is written in latex by hand. Then I convert it to
>>>>>> pdf and send it out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I used to teach a mini-course in latex for grad students at the
>>>>>> Math Department at the University Of Wisconsin. We dropped it a
>>>>>> long time ago because grad students come in already knowing latex.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/11/19 6:48 AM, Łukasz Grabowski via BlindMath wrote:
>>>>>>> The bottom line cited below is not quite true:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Bottom line: with several available alternatives, no one should
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to read LaTex source code directly unless they really want to
>>>>>>> torture
>>>>>>> themselves."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know it for a fact that blind professional mathematicians read
>>>>>>> latex
>>>>>>> directly. If you don't believe, I suggest going to arxiv.org,
>>>>>>> downloading latex source for some new mathematical article and
>>>>>>> trying
>>>>>>> to convert it to mathml.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The effect likely will be that no matter what software you use
>>>>>>> you will
>>>>>>> have to spend first a substantial amount of time editing the
>>>>>>> source code
>>>>>>> just to make your software parse the source. And even if you do
>>>>>>> succeed
>>>>>>> (which is FAR from given as not all latex pakcages will be
>>>>>>> implemented
>>>>>>> in your conversion software)) afterwards you will also surely
>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>> consult latex source anyway while reading mathml.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having said that, this is about professional cutting edge
>>>>>>> mathematical
>>>>>>> research. For the purpose of high school students or early
>>>>>>> university
>>>>>>> (basic calculus, statistics, etc.), there is probably indeed no
>>>>>>> need,
>>>>>>> as there are good quality mathml materials available.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Lukasz
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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