[BlindMath] What is your experience reading LaTeX source?

John Gardner gardnerj at oregonstate.edu
Sun Jan 13 21:01:15 UTC 2019 

Hello all. WinTriangle was developed in my lab and then taken over by the Access Tech group at Oregon State. Not sure where the final version lies nor whether it is worth modernizing it. WinTriangle is basically just a compact form of LaTex in which things like the \frac{, the }{ in the middle and the final } of a fraction structure are replaced by single symbols that voice as "frac" "over" and "end frac". There are only a few little departures from Latex syntax I believe. Actually I'm not sure, but I believe that left subscripts and maybe index roots are spoken in more intuitive fashion than Latex. I know they are spoken that way in the LeanMath app. And of course the unicode symbols for Greek letters are used instead of \alpha... Aqil can no doubt give a list of things that are not quite proper Latex order, but it isn't a big deal to transform between Latex and WinTriangle. The symbols are intuitive enough that most sighted scientists can read WinTriangle files without much difficulty.

Hope this helps a bit.
John


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Aqil Sajjad via BlindMath
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2019 2:12 AM
To: Doug and Molly Miron via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Aqil Sajjad <aqilsajjad at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] What is your experience reading LaTeX source?

Ok, here are the instructions. I have tried to be as explicit and detailed as possible, but I may still have left something out. So feel free to ask if you have any questions. Since WinTriangle and the LaTex-to-triangle converter don't seem to be available on-line any more, I just put them in my public dropbox folder. Follow these steps:

1. Download this rar file and uncompress it.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b92okjrfpi220qb/WinTriangle-full-package.rar?dl=0

2. You will get 3 folders inside the uncompressed package. First, open the SAPI51 folder and run the Sapi51.exe file. This will install the microsoft SAPI speech engine which is used by WinTriangle.

2. Open the Wintriangle3.0.0.a folder. Go to fonts. Inside it, you will find a file titled triangle.ttf. Copy this file into your c:\WINDOWS\Fonts
  folder.

3. Now, go back to the Wintriangle3.0.0.a folder. Inside it, there is a file named triangle.exe. If you run this file, it will execute the triangle program. The program doesn't exactly have an installation. You can put a short cut to this file in your desktop or programs menu if you want to run it directly without having to go to the exact folder every time.

4. The WinTriangle program is basically a text editor with speech. But it has Greek letters and mathematical symbols in a special linear notation modeled after LaTex. But the idea is to simplify the notation and replace LaTex commands with single characters and do away with display related formatting commands. Secondly, there are convenient hot keys for typing all these characters. You can find all the special characters and hot keys in the insert menue. Or you can just press alt i and it will bring up 3 sets of lists that you can tab between.

For example, for a fraction, there is a starting character which the program reads as "fraction" instead of \frac{. The end of the numerator and start of the denominator is represented by a "denominator" 
character. The end of the fraction is represented by a an "end fraction" 
character. Pressing alt comma types all three characters at once with the curser at the place where you would insert the numerator.

I should mention that the equations do not display as regular print. The Greek letters do show correctly, but the fractions, square roots, vector symbols etc look a bit different from regular print. So this may not necessarily be the software to use if you're trying to create documents for others.

That said, many sighted people will easily be able to read this once you give them an orientation to this notation. And this was the whole idea. 
That while this wasn't exactly like regular print, it was simple enough that blind students would be able to share their work with their teachers without the need of a transcriber in between. I used this for all my undergraduate studies and my teachers were always able to read my homework solutions and exams in this notation. When I started my graduate level research, I switched to LaTex for writing and now only use WinTriangle for reading or for giving presentations.

5. Now back to reading in WinTriangle. Mainly, you would use the aero keys and WinTriangle will read out the new character or line you arrive on. There are a couple of other hot keys that are useful. For example,

Control r reads the line.
Alt right aero reads the character the curser is on.
Pressing alt right aero twice gives you the character phonetically .

6. Now, let's get to reading a LaTex document. For this, you want to install the Ltx to triangle converter. Go to the "LaTex to Tri" folder in the package and run the executable file. This will bring up the install shield so go ahead and install the program. It should appear in your programs menue like any other installed program.

7. Open the LaTex to triangle converter. Go inside the file menu and choose open. Now, select the folder where you have your LaTex document and open  it. This creates an rtf file for the LaTex document in the same folder. You now want to open this file in WinTriangle and this will allow you to read it. So go back to WinTriangle, press control o, browse to the relevant folder and open the document. And now you can just navigate through it and read it without any of the formatting clutter you have to go through while reading the LaTex source code.



On 1/12/2019 9:36 AM, Doug and Molly Miron via BlindMath wrote:

> Thanks. I do have a WinXP box which I bought so I could run an old but 
> accessible version of MatLab.  Maybe I'll give it a try.---Doug
>
> On 1/12/2019 4:18 AM, Aqil Sajjad via BlindMath wrote:
>> Hi Doug,
>>
>> Unfortunately, WinTriangle only works in Windows XP because it was 
>> never updated. I still carry a Windows Xp computer in addition to a 
>> Windows 10 one in order to use it. Having to do this is a nuisance, 
>> but I still do it because the efficiency I gain by not having to read 
>> or edit LaTex directly all the time is huge.
>>
>>
>> For me personally, the bottom line is to use tools that allow me to 
>> focus on the content of the equations and work efficiently. So I find 
>> this a totally worthwhile trade off without any doubt. Other people 
>> may see it differently. But I would say that if you're reading LaTex 
>> documents on a very regular basis, then chances are that you'll be 
>> glad if you give the WinTriangle system a try even at the cost of 
>> having to get Windows XP on your computer. If on the other hand 
>> you're reading other people's LaTex files very rarely, then it may 
>> not necessarily be a good trade off.
>>
>> In case you decide to still go ahead and give it a try, then I can 
>> walk you through the steps involved in making it work on Windows XP.
>>
>> On a different note, I have come to the conclusion that until Math 
>> Type based conversion tools develop the sophistication to handle a 
>> large variety of LaTex commands, we need to upgrade WinTriangle so 
>> that it can work in Windows 10. Yes, it's an old system that is 
>> supposed to have died a long time back with the arrival of new 
>> technology, but unfortunately, the new technology isn't there yet, 
>> notwithstanding all the hype. Basically, any solution that requires 
>> people to spend a lot of time reading through other people's LaTex 
>> code is a very flawed and inefficient approach, no matter how poplar 
>> it may be.
>>
>>
>>  Aqil
>>
>> On 1/11/2019 9:50 PM, Doug and Molly Miron via BlindMath wrote:
>>> Good day,
>>>
>>>
>>> I tried to install Wintriangle but got a notice that I needed a .net 
>>> framework, so I clicked on the button to get one. However, I 
>>> apparently didn't choose the right one because the wintriangle 
>>> installer still wouldn't run.  Does anyone want to give me a 
>>> step-by-step procedure?  I'm using Windows 10.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm a fairly recent learner and user of LaTeX.  I use the simplest 
>>> form possible to write my equations and use the MathType converter 
>>> to give MathPlayer-readable equations. I've converted a couple of 
>>> source files for published papers that the author kindly provided, 
>>> but did this by deleting all the excess formatting which MathType 
>>> wouldn't convert anyway. I didn't find this too tedious an approach, 
>>> but that's because I didn't do it much.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Doug Miron
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/11/2019 2:02 PM, Aqil Sajjad via BlindMath wrote:
>>>> Ok, I should have phrased that 'bottom line' sentence slightly 
>>>> differently. But the overall point is still fully valid. I am a 
>>>> research level blind physicist and read papers from arxiv all the 
>>>> time. And most of the time I am able to do this either with zero or 
>>>> minimal time wasted on reading or editing the original LaTex code.
>>>> The reason: I choose to work with technology that allows me to do 
>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, several blind mathematicians read LaTex code directly. But 
>>>> that hardly means it is not a very inefficient way to read math.
>>>> There is a reason why sighted people generally read the compiled 
>>>> pdf instead of reading the LaTex source code directly. The 
>>>> difference is like going to a website and reading the html source 
>>>> code with all the formatting junk instead of reading the actual 
>>>> website on display. One can of course read the source code but one 
>>>> wouldn't normally do that as a first choice unless one really has 
>>>> to. And this isn't merely a matter of personal preference but has 
>>>> to do with the fact that if you have to read through all those 
>>>> formatting commands which aren't related to the content, then it's 
>>>> distracting and makes reading inefficient.
>>>>
>>>> Now, coming to the point about the inability of LaTex to MathML 
>>>> converters to cleanly produce good MathML without requiring one to 
>>>> edit the source code. I haven't worked with MathMl conversion 
>>>> because I haven't been able to get one working, honestly. I have 
>>>> however done some experimentation with LaTex to MathType 
>>>> convertors, and yes, the results are mixed. It's true that things 
>>>> don't always convert well to Math Type without having to edit the 
>>>> source code. But then this only means that these tools aren't quite 
>>>> there yet despite all the excessive hype around MathML and Math 
>>>> Type on these forums. It does not mean that reading LaTex directly 
>>>> should be the way to go.
>>>>
>>>> As I I wrote in the previous e-mail, I use an old tool called 
>>>> WinTriangle for reading LaTex documents because it allows 
>>>> conversion to a clutter-free format with much less work. Yes, I do 
>>>> have to edit the source code sometimes in order to make it convert 
>>>> correctly. But most of the time I am able to simply convert it to 
>>>> WinTriangle without having to open the LaTex source code at all. 
>>>> Apart from the arxiv, this also applies to documents obtained by 
>>>> scanning something and converting it to LaTex through infty reader. 
>>>> They mostly convert nicely to WinTriangle without one having to 
>>>> even open the LaTex source code.
>>>> This allows me to focus on reading the real content without having 
>>>> to waste time reading through all the clutter in the LaTex code.
>>>>
>>>> So here is the revised bottom line: One doesn't and shouldn't have 
>>>> to spent a lot of time reading through the formatting mess in the 
>>>> LaTex source code in order to read math. Sighted people don't do it 
>>>> and we shouldn't have to do it either. If we're doing it, then 
>>>> we're using the wrong technology and lowering our efficiency.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/11/2019 8:55 AM, John G Heim via BlindMath wrote:
>>>>> Yeah, I didn't see that in the original post but I write all my 
>>>>> own latex by hand. Every document I create for any reason, whether 
>>>>> it is for work or for one of the non-profits I am involved in, is 
>>>>> written in latex by hand. Then I convert it to pdf and send it out.
>>>>>
>>>>> I used to teach a mini-course in latex for grad students at the 
>>>>> Math Department at the University Of Wisconsin. We dropped it a 
>>>>> long time ago because grad students come in already knowing latex.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/11/19 6:48 AM, Łukasz Grabowski via BlindMath wrote:
>>>>>> The bottom line cited below is not quite true:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Bottom line: with several available alternatives, no one should 
>>>>>> have to read LaTex source code directly unless they really want 
>>>>>> to torture themselves."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know it for a fact that blind professional mathematicians read 
>>>>>> latex directly. If you don't believe, I suggest going to 
>>>>>> arxiv.org, downloading latex source for some new mathematical 
>>>>>> article and trying to convert it to mathml.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The effect likely will be that no matter what software you use 
>>>>>> you will have to spend first a substantial amount of time editing 
>>>>>> the source code just to make your software parse the source. And 
>>>>>> even if you do succeed (which is FAR from given as not all latex 
>>>>>> pakcages will be implemented in your conversion software)) 
>>>>>> afterwards you will also surely need to consult latex source 
>>>>>> anyway while reading mathml.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having said that, this is about professional cutting edge 
>>>>>> mathematical research. For the purpose of high school students or 
>>>>>> early university (basic calculus, statistics, etc.), there is 
>>>>>> probably indeed no need, as there are good quality mathml 
>>>>>> materials available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Lukasz
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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