[BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

Fri Sep 13 23:18:12 UTC 2019

Note: 
Matlab way of presenting matrices is convenient. 
I don’t think there is a better way to handle it. He may how to write code making matrix operations to make sure he understands how it works.   Python is a fairly great English like programming language for humans. 
Note: contact me accessibility team in Apple at least to improve their product 
Sincerely 
Mohamed E. Fayed

You may contact me using WhatsApp , IMO, or Skype for more info 
00201288055252 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 14, 2019, at 1:00 AM, Sina Bahram via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I know this list is not meant to solve people's accommodations problems, but
> there were a hell of a lot of people looking out for me when I was in this
> boat, and so, begging the list's forgiveness, but this is important, and
> paying it forward is the only way we improve things for everyone, so I'd
> like to delve into this a bit.
> 
> Oh wow, that changes things a bit, at least as far as I'm concerned. I claim
> he needs Braille, and yesterday. Differential equations, ok, not ideal, but
> I did some trivial ones in my head back in undergrad, and even then I had
> braille for scratch, but linear algebra is just highly improbable to have
> success at without braille. We're talking 5x5 matrices with operations being
> done on them, that's 25 numbers at a time ... just no. The working memory
> flushes from a single operation on that kind of matrix is ridiculous. It
> would take him an order of magnitude longer to solve a problem using
> single-line display and speech than a sighted counterpart, or at least,
> *shrug*, that's been my experience.
> 
> How is he even doing simple things like just checking if a matrix is in row
> echelon form? That's just a finger drag in Braille. I'm the most
> tech-positive person I know, but there are fundamental physical advantages
> to Braille when it comes to matrices, and I'm sorry, we haven't solved those
> problems as computer scientists yet.
> 
> Anyways, I wish to be careful not to project solutions that worked for me
> onto him, but just examining this from first principles makes me concerned
> about a purely digital solution. Do let me know if I've missed something
> earlier in the thread and he does have access to a Braille book?
> 
> Take care,
> Sina
> 
> President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
> Phone: 919-345-3832
> https://www.PAC.bz
> Twitter: @SinaBahram
> Personal Website: https://www.sinabahram.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via
> BlindMath
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 5:42 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
> 
> The student is in differential equations and linear algebra courses this
> semester. Yes, there are matrices.  Lots and lots of matrices.  He needs
> Windows + NVDA + Mathplayer and MathML files.  He is not going to get the
> same functionality on the Mac, even with a bunch of crazy single-step
> workarounds.  
> 
> -Susan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sina Bahram via
> BlindMath
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 3:36 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sina Bahram <sina at sinabahram.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
> 
> Ed brings up a great additional solution. On IOS devices, the Math
> exploration support isn't bad. I wouldn't say that it is "great", especially
> for basically anything involving matrices, step-wise functions, complex
> integrals, nested series, calculus-based statistics past the intro stuff,
> etc., but this all may be out of scope for your student, and therefore does
> not matter.
> 
> Note, much like Ed, I haven't played with that in a little bit, so I can't
> recall whether or not VO allows for both Nemeth and UEB output, for example,
> especially on the math side, which may matter depending on how your student
> was taught mathematics in Braille, if at all, so something else to keep in
> mind.
> 
> I will point out though, and with tons of bias, that I still feel
> MathPlayer+NVDA is absolutely the most fully-featured way of exploring
> mathematics in existence. The bias part comes from the fact that I spent 3
> to 4+ years helping develop those techniques with Neil Soiffer (who, as far
> as I'm concerned is the most under-recognized hero of access to mathematics
> in our community), but the factual part comes from, don't bother with what I
> think and feel free to investigate on your own and read ETS's associated
> papers, etc.
> 
> Personal story: I will never, ever, forget the feeling of just pure awe when
> I was able to browse Euler's equations, Einstein's special relativity
> formulas, the Riemann Zeta function, etc. just by doing some Google searches
> across Wikipedia, and that was also in Nemeth under my fingertips ... that
> was a big deal. I would have absolutely done anything for that in high
> school/undergrad. Pondering that too much makes me sound old, though, haha
> e.g. kids have it so good these days. The point is that, they don't. There
> are still huge disparities in equitable access to the most basic tenants of
> mathematics education, but it is absolutely getting better, and noticeably
> so, which is amazing and awesome.
> 
> Take care,
> Sina
> 
> President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
> Phone: 919-345-3832
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/19n1e2Jbkz42iDH-5Pdoceh13su44yrRxguReza8A2BJrnx
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> Twitter: @SinaBahram
> Personal Website:
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1U2YwX0bDR_z5hbNqh-SwwcaIAvqXblSjXFzJsl5I8YLZs4
> -d9hX9PRTgv6Ku2pdEBDTOYFMvj5WwtW9bXw4_BXCpqBpIWJB65qDZWpF75BfqZJE4-JCmxuYJww
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> F%2Fwww.sinabahram.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ed Summers via
> BlindMath
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 5:11 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
> 
> Please verify your markup is correct. I just tested equations on this page
> using VO + Safari on my iPhone. Works great. My sighted colleague confirmed
> full screen display of equations and terms.
> 
> https://support.freedomscientific.com/content/html/jawshq/MathML-Samples.htm
> l
> 
> Ed
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via
> BlindMath
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 4:41 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
> 
> EXTERNAL
> 
> Yes, I've tried it with Safari and Voiceover.  I get an javascript error
> just opening the file in Safari.
> 
> I appreciate everyone's advice and help!  I am still learning so many
> things.
> 
> -Susan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ed Summers via
> BlindMath
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 2:38 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
> 
> Sina, well said. I agree 100%.
> 
> 
> 
> Susan, have you tried viewing your MathML  in Safari on iOS using VoiceOver?
> I haven't tested it in some time. However, in the past it had decent
> braille/speech support and it also displays the equation, individual terms,
> etc full screen. It's a really nice feature for users with low vision.
> 
> 
> 
> The video in this blog post shows how to access MathML in an iBook. However,
> the behavior is the same in Safari.
> 
> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure-web
> .cisco.com%2F1pfRZpLyxwF0kR3bPQ2ndLOypWMTbxeHH6C7vbxk19sGe0SIABYm2T1gWuUnGF-
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> VHEGLKxlcD1fWjCICA/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.perkinselearning.org%
> 252Ftechnology%252Fblog%252Fhow-read-math-expressions-voiceover-ios-device&a
> mp;data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com%7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d7388af0e1%7C
> b1c14d5c362545b3a4309552373a0c2f%7C0%7C0%7C637040041710303910&sdata=xNs9
> u4aUi94UqoSc3ZJ1GytTKMzedBsGVeFifM78IKE%3D&reserved=0
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
> p.s. If he's low vision and he refuses to use a screen reader, I would be
> willing to bet his reading rate is very slow. I'm on a mission to help all
> students with VIB increase their reading rate to ~600 words per minute.
> Please refer him to my blog series on this topic:
> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure-web
> .cisco.com%2F1cSF4MiqJn2-ha0xenuWeZJslZ_rxhwN5F_OgCT4hre2rIqlkNKViddHgqIerU8
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> eQvNcqumN0V808AeTx-zeKKV6RRg%2Fhttps%253A%252F%252Fhttp://secure-web.cisco.c
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> 252Ftechnology%252Fblog%252Fhow-teach-your-students-read-600-words-minute---
> part-1&data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com%7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d7388
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sina Bahram via
> BlindMath
> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 12:46 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sina Bahram <sina at sinabahram.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
> 
> 
> 
> EXTERNAL
> 
> 
> 
> Susan,
> 
> 
> 
> It's not fair, but sometimes we need to use the right tool for the job.
> 
> Currently, a Mac is simply the wrong tool for reading and exploring
> mathematics. Your student needs to understand this. Is the resistance from a
> lack of understanding, a resistance to change, or something else? They may
> be asked to learn different platforms in an eventual job as well, so they
> should start now when they arguably have more free-time and resources to
> help them, such as yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> They can do their email, games, and whatever else they like on their Mac,
> but Windows provides you NVDA, and NVDA+MathPlayer gets you excellent speech
> and Braille for the mathematics encoded as you have described.
> 
> 
> 
> They don't even need to change their hardware, necessarily, as they could
> run Windows inside of a VM on their Mac, thereby taking advantage of both
> worlds.
> 
> 
> 
> If they are unwilling to change, then I wish you both luck, and know that
> you can't always convince folks to use the right solution, even when you try
> all sorts of rational and emotional arguments. Try not to take that too
> hard, as it's out of your control.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for what you do, by the way, it makes a huge impact in people's
> lives.
> 
> 
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Sina
> 
> 
> 
> President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
> 
> Phone: 919-345-3832
> 
> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.PAC.bz
> &data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com%7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d7388af0e1%
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> rEcpmsIyoFBT4TXxb9vQkgZLI4LjPExfvnESCYqxQ%3D&reserved=0
> 
> Twitter: @SinaBahram
> 
> Personal Website:
> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinaba
> hram.com&data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com%7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d73
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> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via
> BlindMath
> 
> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 12:36 PM
> 
> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
> 
> Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
> 
> Subject: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
> 
> 
> 
> I've been on this list for several years and read much of what you post, and
> have learned a lot.  I'm an alternate format provider for students at the
> University of Colorado, and I have a new problem and don't know how to help
> my student.
> 
> 
> 
> He is a math and computer science major with low vision and refuses to move
> to a Windows machine or to use a screen reader.  He has familiarity with
> Voiceover on his Mac.  He has some vision and has gotten through math in the
> past with enlargements, but he's reached a point in his college career where
> this is just not going to be enough.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm creating math-enabled files, that can be read easily on a Windows
> machine, but I'm not having any luck getting this to work on a Mac.  I've
> tried epub3, which works but doesn't read all the characters in an equation.
> 
> I've tried just using a mathml file (I get a javascript error when I try to
> open it in Safari and then it opens the file but all the math is missing),
> I've tried straight-up word files with Mathtype.  Nothing is working.  I
> can't seem to adjust the verbosity settings on voiceover to anything but
> "all" or "some" but no fine tuning.  So while it reads the math it puts in a
> lot of extra stuff if I am using the "all" setting, and doesn't read the
> basics (like parenthesis) if I set it to "some."  I am creating all files in
> Word with Mathtype on a PC.
> 
> 
> 
> Any suggestions for me and my student?
> 
> 
> 
> Susan Kelmer
> 
> Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services University
> of Colorado Boulder
> 
> 303-735-4836
> 
> 
> 
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> BlindMath Gems can be found at
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> 4cuT9nNbPGjMwFS7GPYIeDh_ca7NquwOfiAT7-ygFPGcH-MKazkBuwsUleqMfRyPWRQjsqAvC3XX
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