[BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac

Sun Sep 15 07:14:59 UTC 2019

I am willing to meet with your student and show them how to use math player
to read matrices. Itt's something I didn't actually know existed until
after I finished linear algebra. Also, can your student learn Braille?
Working purely with speech on matrices is one of the single hardest things
I did in college, and I would not have passed my linear algebra class if I
haddn't decided to switch to using braille for everything. I also modified
the latex-access matrix browser implementation in NVDA to allow for virtual
exploration of matrices, but that's less relevant since you can use
control+arrows to move around them with math player.

On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 3:43 PM Susan Kelmer via BlindMath <
blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> The student is in differential equations and linear algebra courses this
> semester. Yes, there are matrices.  Lots and lots of matrices.  He needs
> Windows + NVDA + Mathplayer and MathML files.  He is not going to get the
> same functionality on the Mac, even with a bunch of crazy single-step
> workarounds.
>
> -Susan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> via BlindMath
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 3:36 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics' <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sina Bahram <sina at sinabahram.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
>
> Ed brings up a great additional solution. On IOS devices, the Math
> exploration support isn't bad. I wouldn't say that it is "great",
> especially for basically anything involving matrices, step-wise functions,
> complex integrals, nested series, calculus-based statistics past the intro
> stuff, etc., but this all may be out of scope for your student, and
> therefore does not matter.
>
> Note, much like Ed, I haven't played with that in a little bit, so I can't
> recall whether or not VO allows for both Nemeth and UEB output, for
> example, especially on the math side, which may matter depending on how
> your student was taught mathematics in Braille, if at all, so something
> else to keep in mind.
>
> I will point out though, and with tons of bias, that I still feel
> MathPlayer+NVDA is absolutely the most fully-featured way of exploring
> mathematics in existence. The bias part comes from the fact that I spent 3
> to 4+ years helping develop those techniques with Neil Soiffer (who, as far
> as I'm concerned is the most under-recognized hero of access to mathematics
> in our community), but the factual part comes from, don't bother with what
> I think and feel free to investigate on your own and read ETS's associated
> papers, etc.
>
> Personal story: I will never, ever, forget the feeling of just pure awe
> when I was able to browse Euler's equations, Einstein's special relativity
> formulas, the Riemann Zeta function, etc. just by doing some Google
> searches across Wikipedia, and that was also in Nemeth under my fingertips
> ... that was a big deal. I would have absolutely done anything for that in
> high school/undergrad. Pondering that too much makes me sound old, though,
> haha e.g. kids have it so good these days. The point is that, they don't.
> There are still huge disparities in equitable access to the most basic
> tenants of mathematics education, but it is absolutely getting better, and
> noticeably so, which is amazing and awesome.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
> Phone: 919-345-3832
>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/19n1e2Jbkz42iDH-5Pdoceh13su44yrRxguReza8A2BJrnxrmWf34Atf3hHTMqNlGk4Lmp0R00mjrfP0dMcycPyfXUxZENLcqMhCqujBGM8RBEswnx7zz-LebWwx5j52Z3C69OD6kIffTNDWp8jgJwz2L1ZNXE5EyZFngI8ufEqZMJt1nC6PHpy_dDbyrSVkkvwlz8Sdbdxz5GmTHeAj9kS0IlokqoJ4U3aICBHJqSq7seIXGxhjsotT5LXyOmaD1bM1tkhdqZW8gYHZ4fzkl6Nq_8J3rTtWFi4-03QYtJe2pPkHnpvkMiK93_3oze7Hlx3Q1JYNb_m-7826bNV5alWusC97WAcsS8TeGmSWJ-IbscE3H3Ov-PeWcPPejr6UE2Yuanns8ifvhQYuvjy_5SJCVVVxDGC7ZWa8s0gXOFuPQjDsT-wYyKTaOe5NAhV9b_kNzWjCjMMf_iMMbX7rs8g/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.PAC.bz
> Twitter: @SinaBahram
> Personal Website:
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1U2YwX0bDR_z5hbNqh-SwwcaIAvqXblSjXFzJsl5I8YLZs4-d9hX9PRTgv6Ku2pdEBDTOYFMvj5WwtW9bXw4_BXCpqBpIWJB65qDZWpF75BfqZJE4-JCmxuYJwwsOr144xt-ruC7iDZKvpHSsxdyL-z0_rvZnJe0gG1r9bRiwhxz7usBUmhV_6iKeGBMTgNlP3fDtXPXDj-Dd0g4Z2D1YcqmebFCHfDczdNgVX1hKDWlJPMb9ThLqtcahkfY8RZoGHRNkY5FoDig1AttMfcX0kThneIc3UmIZpBhxyqI-W6oTOMFp63XE_sHIJUmnDuXnk359qwmErYhgEj7CjUi_yYp_rnQU9mh817-QLNfPADUugAEecelVJB3KYlTR5XqGmVlwDV0v-xxR2aeIFEx9JFoOtWjfL8pdOZvNtCcNtTI6TuFvvzlpQiqVZZoHyYU6yAECc_FzWoGXnXMrFT49HCFslpyrYkANy4c1QECM48k/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinabahram.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ed Summers
> via BlindMath
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 5:11 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
>
> Please verify your markup is correct. I just tested equations on this page
> using VO + Safari on my iPhone. Works great. My sighted colleague confirmed
> full screen display of equations and terms.
>
>
> https://support.freedomscientific.com/content/html/jawshq/MathML-Samples.htm
> l
>
> Ed
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer
> via BlindMath
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 4:41 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
>
> EXTERNAL
>
> Yes, I've tried it with Safari and Voiceover.  I get an javascript error
> just opening the file in Safari.
>
> I appreciate everyone's advice and help!  I am still learning so many
> things.
>
> -Susan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ed Summers
> via BlindMath
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 2:38 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
>
> Sina, well said. I agree 100%.
>
>
>
> Susan, have you tried viewing your MathML  in Safari on iOS using
> VoiceOver?
> I haven't tested it in some time. However, in the past it had decent
> braille/speech support and it also displays the equation, individual terms,
> etc full screen. It's a really nice feature for users with low vision.
>
>
>
> The video in this blog post shows how to access MathML in an iBook.
> However, the behavior is the same in Safari.
>
>
> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure-web
> .cisco.com
> %2F1pfRZpLyxwF0kR3bPQ2ndLOypWMTbxeHH6C7vbxk19sGe0SIABYm2T1gWuUnGF-
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>
> 252Ftechnology%252Fblog%252Fhow-read-math-expressions-voiceover-ios-device&a
> <http://secure-web.cisco.com/1bw1vkua2jlaga0_QV-IuO6yz0bodC4m9lmNpZjhCZ9YzoNgLnii7A8NKZhJ71A6LlvkeSjXXecH1VUmNLewAlhE5eZYdwg3r-tu8AyMLa_MyvpN9-J3h7EVJFov2V0iDBrQJvxJ7yMqHlHsAY7DV62qsc_AWOCnWUCgGdH6NBy2OzugrFVlgmzqmBYze2h99IFEdyQm0tKYO9BPRBx4ES9TiZJQXA-eBSLRG5wZX5GvT7nMgTebdQrxZW0iNP1krJLkXzsOVmlbeFO8LgXVtwB-JOUoT1BsUFt8PB7SeVxaYpcevHR1iq79lk0S3zBu-aJmJ33gNb6r0n3zUDe-r78xILnIB4GrkEnJ9M9SE9ctUnth9NmIM5E41Mrqp2mc-BUQnv2vwcmo2rl3dxXviCzZTRFe8hPdksnVl2jIUY86OWLgEpvupV_R5vp9YM73LfvXNVHEGLKxlcD1fWjCICA/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.perkinselearning.org%252Ftechnology%252Fblog%252Fhow-read-math-expressions-voiceover-ios-device&a>
> mp;data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com
> %7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d7388af0e1%7C
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>
>
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Ed
>
>
> p.s. If he's low vision and he refuses to use a screen reader, I would be
> willing to bet his reading rate is very slow. I'm on a mission to help all
> students with VIB increase their reading rate to ~600 words per minute.
> Please refer him to my blog series on this topic:
>
> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure-web
> .cisco.com
> %2F1cSF4MiqJn2-ha0xenuWeZJslZ_rxhwN5F_OgCT4hre2rIqlkNKViddHgqIerU8
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> eQvNcqumN0V808AeTx-zeKKV6RRg%2Fhttps%253A%252F%252Fhttp://
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>
> 252Ftechnology%252Fblog%252Fhow-teach-your-students-read-600-words-minute---
>
> part-1&data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com%7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d7388
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>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> via BlindMath
> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 12:46 PM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sina Bahram <sina at sinabahram.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
>
>
>
> EXTERNAL
>
>
>
> Susan,
>
>
>
> It's not fair, but sometimes we need to use the right tool for the job.
>
> Currently, a Mac is simply the wrong tool for reading and exploring
> mathematics. Your student needs to understand this. Is the resistance from
> a lack of understanding, a resistance to change, or something else? They
> may be asked to learn different platforms in an eventual job as well, so
> they should start now when they arguably have more free-time and resources
> to help them, such as yourself.
>
>
>
> They can do their email, games, and whatever else they like on their Mac,
> but Windows provides you NVDA, and NVDA+MathPlayer gets you excellent
> speech and Braille for the mathematics encoded as you have described.
>
>
>
> They don't even need to change their hardware, necessarily, as they could
> run Windows inside of a VM on their Mac, thereby taking advantage of both
> worlds.
>
>
>
> If they are unwilling to change, then I wish you both luck, and know that
> you can't always convince folks to use the right solution, even when you
> try all sorts of rational and emotional arguments. Try not to take that too
> hard, as it's out of your control.
>
>
>
> Thanks for what you do, by the way, it makes a huge impact in people's
> lives.
>
>
>
> Take care,
>
> Sina
>
>
>
> President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
>
> Phone: 919-345-3832
>
>
> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.PAC.bz
>
> &data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com%7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d7388af0e1%
>
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>
> Twitter: @SinaBahram
>
> Personal Website:
>
> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinaba
>
> hram.com&data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com%7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d73
> 88af0e1%7Cb1c14d5c362545b3a4309552373a0c2f%7C0%7C0%7C637040041710303910&amp
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> ;
> sdata=zGX%2Bbda4ghSlAj3%2BqAA%2BMLWg1x4HD%2BiFMC5CYsWSHGw%3D&reserved=0
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer
> via BlindMath
>
> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 12:36 PM
>
> To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
>
> Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
>
> Subject: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
>
>
>
> I've been on this list for several years and read much of what you post,
> and have learned a lot.  I'm an alternate format provider for students at
> the University of Colorado, and I have a new problem and don't know how to
> help my student.
>
>
>
> He is a math and computer science major with low vision and refuses to
> move to a Windows machine or to use a screen reader.  He has familiarity
> with Voiceover on his Mac.  He has some vision and has gotten through math
> in the past with enlargements, but he's reached a point in his college
> career where this is just not going to be enough.
>
>
>
> I'm creating math-enabled files, that can be read easily on a Windows
> machine, but I'm not having any luck getting this to work on a Mac.  I've
> tried epub3, which works but doesn't read all the characters in an equation.
>
> I've tried just using a mathml file (I get a javascript error when I try
> to open it in Safari and then it opens the file but all the math is
> missing), I've tried straight-up word files with Mathtype.  Nothing is
> working.  I can't seem to adjust the verbosity settings on voiceover to
> anything but "all" or "some" but no fine tuning.  So while it reads the
> math it puts in a lot of extra stuff if I am using the "all" setting, and
> doesn't read the basics (like parenthesis) if I set it to "some."  I am
> creating all files in Word with Mathtype on a PC.
>
>
>
> Any suggestions for me and my student?
>
>
>
> Susan Kelmer
>
> Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services University
> of Colorado Boulder
>
> 303-735-4836
>
>
>
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> >
>
>

-- 

Derek Riemer: Improving the world one byte at a time!

   - University of Colorado Boulder Department of computer science, 4th
   year undergraduate student.
   - Accessibility enthusiast.
   - Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
   - Open source enthusiast.
   - Skier.

Personal website <http://derekriemer.com>