[BlindMath] Inaccessible math books

Mon Mar 1 20:31:32 UTC 2021

as for why the NFB isn't pushing for legislation to make the book accessible, I can answer that. The courts have determined that services have to be accessible, not products. So if you were buying a kitchen appliance, the website to purchase that appliance has to be accessible, but the appliance itself doesn't. The same thing goes for the book. But going to a university is a service in for that service to be accessible the book also has to be accessible so that is why the university has to make it accessible. What they have done no since universities legally have to have an accessible service for all students is push for legislation that will make it illegal for universities to contract with publishers that are not following accessibility guidelines. You might have heard of it discussed in terms of accessible software, but from my understanding it will affect electronic textbooks as well. So the publisher can produce as much accessible accessible material as possible. The courts have decided that they legally can't be compelled to make accessible material, but the universities cannot legally be compelled to start purchasing this inaccessible material and if nobody will purchase from them then the publisher will go out of business so they have to make their material accessible. This ruling that products don't have to be accessible, which the NFB told me about when I was asking them about accessible appliances, it's going to be very problematic moving forward. A low income blind person could be in a situation where they can't use the appliances in their apartment. And an HUD unit, the landlord can be required to pay for it to be replaced, but with a private landlord, they have to legally let you modify the unit, but you have to pay for it. In mine they put an inaccessible thermostat when they were updating everything. I don't think there are many accessible thermostats available. I was able to get it replaced with one that I can control with my phone, but even with that one I can't control the thermostat itself. I can only control it from my phone.

Sabra Ewing

> On Mar 1, 2021, at 1:05 PM, Sabra Ewing <SABRA1023 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I can confirm that book share math books are not accessible. I don't know of any solution that would not take hours of work for each chapter. Perhaps you could record the book faster. That is not a very accessible solution, but better than nothing. That is what I had to do. When I was at community college they were able to provide some accessible math but when I was at university I had to listen to recordings that I only got after a lot of effort because they didn't want to do it.
> 
> I had to listen to The recordings, and then write everything down as they spoke so that I could read it and understand what was going on. At that time I was writing in computer braille, using parentheses and brackets to make up for the fact that I didn't have a fraction symbol or on the way to specify inside or outside the route. If you were writing math as part of a computer program, it would be that type of math. That was the only thing I knew how to do without learning a complicated markup language that would also require accessible books and materials to learn that I didn't have.
> 
> I couldn't write it in braille in high school or college because someone having time to transcribe all of the work was not very doable. If you have one braille teacher who has to teach a student and then adapt all of their work as well into an accessible format, transcribing trigonometry and calculus work and getting it back on time for the teacher to provide feedback while you are still on that unit is not doable. So what I had to do is just write in computer braille on the braille note and read line by line.
> 
> I figured out that method on my own. Then when I was reading math, that is also how it would show up. In high school I read math in braille, but in college I read math on the braillenote. There was someone there named Amanda who knew how to tell them how to make it show up correctly, but when I was at university I didn't know how to tell them to make it be correct. Even trying to consult the Internet for help when the textbook is not accessible isn't very doable because mostly all of the math on the Internet is not accessible from tutorials to lessons two YouTube videos. Also, I cannot read tactile graphs despite lots of training. I need audio graphs, yet they do not seem to provide it when they should provide individual accommodations for people. With the book that the publisher gives you, you will be lucky if the equations show up at all. If they do show up, there will just be numbers separated by a lot of blank spaces where symbols should be. The brown though it will not let you write math the way that it is supposed to be written in braille where you can have fraction symbols, show what is inside the route, and so forth without having to use excessive brackets and parentheses because you don't have to write in computer braille anymore, but when I was in college that was not the case.
> 
> Sabra Ewing
> 
>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 11:22 AM, Susan Kelmer via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> MathPix is relatively new and I've not looked into it.  We do use Texthelp's EquatIO to capture individual equations for placement as MathType in our Word documents, which saves time.  It is also quite accurate.  
>> 
>> With the training I give my student staff, they learn quickly how to use shortcuts in MathType production, and the output has been of excellent quality using our processing. 
>> 
>> I am not willing to try INFTY again, as we've tried it several times over the years and end up with such a wide variety of results, that I don't trust it as a production tool.  I need equations to come out accurate, without having to be double-checked so heavily.  There is the additional issue of INFTY needing very high DPI scans, which are slow to create and slow to process, which adds another layer of time to our production process.
>> 
>> I've been in IT for many years, and have a background in process improvement, which generally means we are trying to find the shortest path between A and Z in our production.  Right now, we are as tight as we can be, until better tools come along.
>> 
>> -Susan
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Nikita via BlindMath
>> Sent: Monday, March 1, 2021 10:59 AM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics' <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Nikita <nikitamailings at yandex.com>
>> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
>> 
>> Susan,
>> Thanks for the answer.
>> Have you had any experience with Mathpix Snip?
>> Mathpix Snip digitizes handwritten or printed text, and copies outputs to the clipboard that can be pasted into LaTeX editors like MathType for Word, and more. See https://mathpix.com/ It is a newer OCR technology for mathematical document and possibly more advanced. 
>> Although it is more focused on recognizing each formula or sheet separately, rather than the entire document at once.
>> how would you evaluate the accuracy of Mathpix Snip?
>> Is there any noticeable difference in the accuracy of InftyReader and Mathpix Snip?
>> (If you tried to use it.)
>> Best regards, Nikita.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via BlindMath
>> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2021 8:29 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
>> 
>> We have found wildly mixed results with INFTY.  Each equation output from INFTY needs to be checked for accuracy, and actually takes longer than our current method of processing.  As we are charging by the hour for our work to clients, we are not willing to use an inefficient product that would cost them more.  The time needed to compare each and every equation, plus additional stress on the eyes by moving back and forth to check them all, is completely inefficient and reduces the number of hours we can spend actually doing production.  We find better, higher quality results using our current method. 
>> 
>> -Susan
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Nikita via BlindMath
>> Sent: Monday, March 1, 2021 9:20 AM
>> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
>> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Nikita <nikitamailings at yandex.com>
>> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
>> 
>> Hi Susan,
>> Why don't you use InftyReader in your work?
>> InftyReader is OCR software for mathematical document. See https://secure-web.cisco.com/1t5G1T9JRFboOSgGmzXDWmlBwrcOPEui20sKEPwS0O01S3y
>> 2PXyHTa9FYImbzqVwvax6VhsbDicWAo_yqoGiSDv7yIdvEAEPRC3LnqozR_SNL6N_456t0ubUaEG
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>> MWkPhMhf3VvyqXII9m_QQit0wEq8pyhEmM-QU-TJimcQ/https%3A%2F%2Fhttp://secure-web.cisco.com/1l_bjRbshzcYag92QAZepTjF0zsTj1ZRAdkku-S02nLKN6ejIti43ihd0afbR66ENlg930gA3xgdjHsmrERmbd7kDuers39Y0FvXPzHyahtlxtlj0JIPDcLMA-R8U6Fkt7W_fzSzxjj6NyLFrvERdiOhpgngIRyGZReBWQvWY5evrfBoozXQ_d0rBtvrtUBetu1X78szEnBQJ58L8WhY1XGiG09MqJP1MhpJW9jauiL0B5pc2yCUcaQEiuYu1qzcyOWkGxB4Y9TcNodtULUS5covmzwxjnjf4mlQ-bZX7LLhXVSbSeWb-mVOAQOD7QFPx-MCANhTOd-8VhQzFaPy2HKirs1epAxNjfb6cXphuTKVJDQcyylnLhjG5Bi7D2gA0PV063JYDBOVqcQCtaxi9oPKBFaghXKHzB7VeIT10-zs9-RfMCiAqYXqnjORspgj4/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciaccess.net
>> %2Fen%2FInftyReader%2F
>> Have you tried this tool? Doesn't it help automate at least some of your work?
>> Best regards, Nikita.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via BlindMath
>> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2021 6:54 PM
>> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
>> 
>> As an alternate format manager for a very big university, it just pains me to see the struggle with accessible math.  We regularly convert math textbooks from PDF format from the publisher into MathML and Braille for our students and for clients who contract our services.  Those clients are usually other colleges and universities who do not have a production facility.  We have a full production facility.
>> 
>> That being said, the production of MathML is not just clicking a few buttons and collecting the output.  Math conversion takes hours, many hours.  A full calculus book may take us 250+ hours to complete.  That is for one book.
>> Imagine having a stack of six or seven, all received at the beginning of the semester with no lead time, and students who need them right now.
>> 
>> We cannot count on publishers to ever provide this extensive alternate format. In the U.S. there is no law compelling publishers to provide alternate format of any kind. That burden falls on people like us who work in disability services office all over the country. I've been doing this work for 20-plus years, and while it has been easier to get original content from publishers for our work, the content we are getting is not accessible to everyone.  We are obviously grateful to get any content at all, because it keeps us from having to cut and scan books, but the conversion for STEM materials is a multi-step process that not just anyone can do.  I train student staff in how to create MathML, and I don't let them work on projects until they've had 20 hours of hands-on MathML production. We use MathType in Word to create the files we then turn into Braille, MathML, or other outputs.  
>> 
>> To say there are no vendors producing alternate format during the pandemic is not accurate. We are busier than we've ever been, with more courses being taken online during the pandemic and higher needs of students with multiple types of disabilities. We are out there, and we are doing the best we can.
>> But the workload is overwhelming, and there are only so many hours in a day.
>> And I do know that one major vendor, AMAC, stopped doing Math remediation several years ago. All of our current clients came out of that loss of a vendor.  I'm not sure why they stopped, but they did.  I think there has always been a lack of enough vendors in this field.  But campuses often balk at the price of having materials converted by a lab like ours.  We are not gouging, but we do charge appropriately for our services, and less than some other vendors in the field. 
>> 
>> Something that I think would help us all is if books didn't get updated every year.  A calculus book from 2001 is just as valid today as it was in 2001.  There are lots of files available from older books, as campuses and vendors produced MathML or Braille files, etc., for books as needed.  Yet every year, they have to change the books, so publishers can make more money.  This is a frustration.  I have three different editions of Linear Algebra and its Applications by Lay in MathML format, and just received a request for the "newest" edition. Such insanity! But, it is what publishers do, and we are stuck continuing to do new and newer versions of things, when the older version would work just fine.  Math doesn't change from year to year.  They just word it differently or put in different problem sets.  
>> 
>> Trust me when I say that those of us that produce alternate format for students are doing our absolute best to keep up with things and get materials converted and out to students (and others) as quickly as possible.
>> We are frustrated and angry that we can't get decent materials from publishers. We are frustrated and angry that some publishers hold onto files for weeks, instead of just providing them to us when we ask. We are frustrated and angry that long-time campus culture doesn't give us enough lead time to work on materials because we don't know what those materials are until just before or sometimes after classes start.  We do our best to advocate, and work with faculty on this issue, but our hands are often tied.
>> And math conversion is so much more complicated than just making Microsoft Word files of a standard textbook or novel.  I can convert an 1800 page law book for a blind student in about 8 hours or less.  Yet a 400 page math book takes us 180 hours. It is a whole other animal.
>> 
>> I fight with publishers all the time.  I'm a socially-justice-minded person and fight often for the rights of my students when it comes to alternate format.  Things are better than they were 20 years ago, but they are not where they need to be.  All I can do is promise that I will continue to carry on this fight with publishers.
>> 
>> And if anyone on this list is looking for a particular book in MathML or Word with MathType format, PLEASE reach out to me in email.  If I have the files, I will share them with you.  Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
>> 
>> Susan Kelmer
>> Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services/Student Affairs University of Colorado Boulder Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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