[BlindMath] Inaccessible math books

Mon Mar 1 20:24:50 UTC 2021

math ML might be the best format, but when I was in college what I believe they did is they used Duxberry and they made a BRF file. That file would make the equations show up correctly on my braille display. I couldn't listen to them and read them because when I listened to them they wouldn't be right, but I could read them, which was the most important. I suggested that at my university as well when I went there, and they had Duxberry but didn't know how to use it. When I left, they were going to get an influx of flying students from the school for the blind. I'm not sure how they ended up doing with that. Maybe fine if those blind students weren't taking higher level math. I don't know. I don't think you can get the publisher to do it. The university has to make a reasonable effort to make the book accessible. Butif that person likes audio graphs like me, then you don't have to make tactile graphs. Tactile graphs really suck and I don't understand why they keep on getting offered to people who were born blind as the default. With tactile graphs they have to be very huge and they have to be one per page. I didn't understand that they have to be big until I was getting some help from a student who is drawing some graphs on a makeshift graphing board that we made. The graphs they made were so tiny and there were a lot of them per page. But you can't do that. It needs to be big big big if someone like me is going to be able to read it. Also it needs to have a different texture versus the line versus the grid underneath and for someone like me who can barely read it to begin with, you need to have the grid underneath and not just the tick marks. The problem with embossers is that they make the grid and the graph the same texture so they just all blend together.A higher level math like calculus it is difficult to put enough information on a graph like this whereas with an audio graph, you can listen to so much information at once and you can even listen to things moving such as rotations, reflections, spinning arrows, and all sorts of things. I didn't even need training. I was on the app right away just listening and listening. On one app I was even listening to a picture of Homer Simpson and I didn't realize that he was very large and very overweight until I listened to a picture of him. If I felt a picture of him, I wouldn't know what he was. He would just be a bunch of blobs that didn't make sense. Some thing that complicated I can never read. Yeah I didn't need any training. I'm listening to shapes all the time even right now, and they are the exact same shapes that come on the pictures and the graphs, except nobody made intentional shapes and I don't have earphones so mostly they are just waves, lines, and dots. I thought everybody heard them, but apparently they don't. Only I do. Some other blind people do as well like Amanda. I think she's on here. She can tell you about them. But I don't think Amanda hears them the way I do every second. If I had been offered them in school, I would have learned a lot more in math. I might have even done well and mobility lessons because I would have been able to read the maps that they gave me. If the person is like me they can just skip over the training and start listening to what they've been hearing all the time, except actual shapes now such as a picture of a house instead of just waves, lines, and dots. If not, then apparently they can do it with intensive training. If you have to do a tactile graph, it might even be better do you put on the rubber board. I could always read the graphs on the rubber board a lot better than the ones that were embossed because I could pick up the string a tiny bit to see the intersection, and I could easily tell the graph from the grid and I could easily tell the points as well. But the problem with that is you can only make one graph at a time on it. I can make basic graphs on the graphing board as well. If someone needs to make some graphs, they can make it on there and either show it to somebody or get some pictures. If they're like me and they can't take pictures, then they can have someone on call who is just at home or doing whatever they're doing who you can call them through your camera and they can get pictures for you. I'm sure university student could do it. It would be no more than maybe an hour of work at most, and it would be in five minute increments or so as the person called after they did each problem. Or the University could get era, which is a bit more expensive, but which can be on call for 24 hours a day and can take some pictures. They are expensive but if the university did get them for the student for a certain number of minutes, they could at least read part of the book to you or type it. But really it might be cheaper to just record the book or type it yourself. If you calledYou wouldn't be guaranteed to get somebody new math. They won't let you set up an agent ahead of time I don't you wouldn't be guaranteed to get somebody new math. They won't let you set up an agent ahead of time I don't think. But everything I can think of will Take hours of work for each chapter. At least if yotake hours of work for each chapter. At least if you use the PDF from the publisher you can copy and paste any text and you just have to do the equations. Math NL is the best format. You can listen to it, you can read it on a braille display, you can read it on the computer, you can read it on the phone, you can basically read it anywhere.You don't have to learn anything complicated if you ar you don't have to learn anything complicated if you are reading it. It simply shows up.  

Sabra Ewing

> On Mar 1, 2021, at 11:22 AM, Susan Kelmer via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> MathPix is relatively new and I've not looked into it.  We do use Texthelp's EquatIO to capture individual equations for placement as MathType in our Word documents, which saves time.  It is also quite accurate.  
> 
> With the training I give my student staff, they learn quickly how to use shortcuts in MathType production, and the output has been of excellent quality using our processing. 
> 
> I am not willing to try INFTY again, as we've tried it several times over the years and end up with such a wide variety of results, that I don't trust it as a production tool.  I need equations to come out accurate, without having to be double-checked so heavily.  There is the additional issue of INFTY needing very high DPI scans, which are slow to create and slow to process, which adds another layer of time to our production process.
> 
> I've been in IT for many years, and have a background in process improvement, which generally means we are trying to find the shortest path between A and Z in our production.  Right now, we are as tight as we can be, until better tools come along.
> 
> -Susan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Nikita via BlindMath
> Sent: Monday, March 1, 2021 10:59 AM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics' <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Nikita <nikitamailings at yandex.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> 
> Susan,
> Thanks for the answer.
> Have you had any experience with Mathpix Snip?
> Mathpix Snip digitizes handwritten or printed text, and copies outputs to the clipboard that can be pasted into LaTeX editors like MathType for Word, and more. See https://mathpix.com/ It is a newer OCR technology for mathematical document and possibly more advanced. 
> Although it is more focused on recognizing each formula or sheet separately, rather than the entire document at once.
> how would you evaluate the accuracy of Mathpix Snip?
> Is there any noticeable difference in the accuracy of InftyReader and Mathpix Snip?
> (If you tried to use it.)
> Best regards, Nikita.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via BlindMath
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2021 8:29 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> 
> We have found wildly mixed results with INFTY.  Each equation output from INFTY needs to be checked for accuracy, and actually takes longer than our current method of processing.  As we are charging by the hour for our work to clients, we are not willing to use an inefficient product that would cost them more.  The time needed to compare each and every equation, plus additional stress on the eyes by moving back and forth to check them all, is completely inefficient and reduces the number of hours we can spend actually doing production.  We find better, higher quality results using our current method. 
> 
> -Susan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Nikita via BlindMath
> Sent: Monday, March 1, 2021 9:20 AM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Nikita <nikitamailings at yandex.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> 
> Hi Susan,
> Why don't you use InftyReader in your work?
> InftyReader is OCR software for mathematical document. See https://secure-web.cisco.com/1t5G1T9JRFboOSgGmzXDWmlBwrcOPEui20sKEPwS0O01S3y
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> MWkPhMhf3VvyqXII9m_QQit0wEq8pyhEmM-QU-TJimcQ/https%3A%2F%2Fhttp://secure-web.cisco.com/1l_bjRbshzcYag92QAZepTjF0zsTj1ZRAdkku-S02nLKN6ejIti43ihd0afbR66ENlg930gA3xgdjHsmrERmbd7kDuers39Y0FvXPzHyahtlxtlj0JIPDcLMA-R8U6Fkt7W_fzSzxjj6NyLFrvERdiOhpgngIRyGZReBWQvWY5evrfBoozXQ_d0rBtvrtUBetu1X78szEnBQJ58L8WhY1XGiG09MqJP1MhpJW9jauiL0B5pc2yCUcaQEiuYu1qzcyOWkGxB4Y9TcNodtULUS5covmzwxjnjf4mlQ-bZX7LLhXVSbSeWb-mVOAQOD7QFPx-MCANhTOd-8VhQzFaPy2HKirs1epAxNjfb6cXphuTKVJDQcyylnLhjG5Bi7D2gA0PV063JYDBOVqcQCtaxi9oPKBFaghXKHzB7VeIT10-zs9-RfMCiAqYXqnjORspgj4/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciaccess.net
> %2Fen%2FInftyReader%2F
> Have you tried this tool? Doesn't it help automate at least some of your work?
> Best regards, Nikita.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via BlindMath
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2021 6:54 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Inaccessible math books
> 
> As an alternate format manager for a very big university, it just pains me to see the struggle with accessible math.  We regularly convert math textbooks from PDF format from the publisher into MathML and Braille for our students and for clients who contract our services.  Those clients are usually other colleges and universities who do not have a production facility.  We have a full production facility.
> 
> That being said, the production of MathML is not just clicking a few buttons and collecting the output.  Math conversion takes hours, many hours.  A full calculus book may take us 250+ hours to complete.  That is for one book.
> Imagine having a stack of six or seven, all received at the beginning of the semester with no lead time, and students who need them right now.
> 
> We cannot count on publishers to ever provide this extensive alternate format. In the U.S. there is no law compelling publishers to provide alternate format of any kind. That burden falls on people like us who work in disability services office all over the country. I've been doing this work for 20-plus years, and while it has been easier to get original content from publishers for our work, the content we are getting is not accessible to everyone.  We are obviously grateful to get any content at all, because it keeps us from having to cut and scan books, but the conversion for STEM materials is a multi-step process that not just anyone can do.  I train student staff in how to create MathML, and I don't let them work on projects until they've had 20 hours of hands-on MathML production. We use MathType in Word to create the files we then turn into Braille, MathML, or other outputs.  
> 
> To say there are no vendors producing alternate format during the pandemic is not accurate. We are busier than we've ever been, with more courses being taken online during the pandemic and higher needs of students with multiple types of disabilities. We are out there, and we are doing the best we can.
> But the workload is overwhelming, and there are only so many hours in a day.
> And I do know that one major vendor, AMAC, stopped doing Math remediation several years ago. All of our current clients came out of that loss of a vendor.  I'm not sure why they stopped, but they did.  I think there has always been a lack of enough vendors in this field.  But campuses often balk at the price of having materials converted by a lab like ours.  We are not gouging, but we do charge appropriately for our services, and less than some other vendors in the field. 
> 
> Something that I think would help us all is if books didn't get updated every year.  A calculus book from 2001 is just as valid today as it was in 2001.  There are lots of files available from older books, as campuses and vendors produced MathML or Braille files, etc., for books as needed.  Yet every year, they have to change the books, so publishers can make more money.  This is a frustration.  I have three different editions of Linear Algebra and its Applications by Lay in MathML format, and just received a request for the "newest" edition. Such insanity! But, it is what publishers do, and we are stuck continuing to do new and newer versions of things, when the older version would work just fine.  Math doesn't change from year to year.  They just word it differently or put in different problem sets.  
> 
> Trust me when I say that those of us that produce alternate format for students are doing our absolute best to keep up with things and get materials converted and out to students (and others) as quickly as possible.
> We are frustrated and angry that we can't get decent materials from publishers. We are frustrated and angry that some publishers hold onto files for weeks, instead of just providing them to us when we ask. We are frustrated and angry that long-time campus culture doesn't give us enough lead time to work on materials because we don't know what those materials are until just before or sometimes after classes start.  We do our best to advocate, and work with faculty on this issue, but our hands are often tied.
> And math conversion is so much more complicated than just making Microsoft Word files of a standard textbook or novel.  I can convert an 1800 page law book for a blind student in about 8 hours or less.  Yet a 400 page math book takes us 180 hours. It is a whole other animal.
> 
> I fight with publishers all the time.  I'm a socially-justice-minded person and fight often for the rights of my students when it comes to alternate format.  Things are better than they were 20 years ago, but they are not where they need to be.  All I can do is promise that I will continue to carry on this fight with publishers.
> 
> And if anyone on this list is looking for a particular book in MathML or Word with MathType format, PLEASE reach out to me in email.  If I have the files, I will share them with you.  Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
> 
> Susan Kelmer
> Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services/Student Affairs University of Colorado Boulder Susan.kelmer at colorado.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
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