[BlindMath] SPSS and Jaws

Mon Feb 27 20:04:12 UTC 2023

Thanks George,
I do understand what s508 is supposed to do, but the evidence says it isn't working, or at least isn't living up to what we need in this instance.

>From my perspective, a law that only some people know about,  fewer understand, and even fewer adhere to, no matter which jurisdiction, isn't actually much of a tool for progress.

The problem with s508 and so many other laws worldwide, is that the onus of making sure they work for disabled people falls back onto the disabled people (or their representative organisations). Seldom to these laws create sufficient incentives or disincentives to make sure the right things are done.

We have a new bill passing through our Parliamentary systems. In the bureaucrats' documents, they point out that the ADA isn't working because the US system relies on people using litigation  to make sure the intent of the law is met; as a person who lives in a relatively anti-litigation environment, where the court of public opinion is often against the person taking legal actions, we need something else. Goodwill and common sense haven't worked to date, so the new bill is making a wet bus ticket look useful.

I don't see the point of taking action against software companies, but I do see the value in taking action against those people and institutions that choose to use inaccessible software. Walking away from those people and institutions is letting them off the hook; walking them away from software ends up with a commercial reality for the software companies.

The cost of fixing every instance, such as paying for each and every student's high support needs, is one way to give the universities the " stop using inaccessible software" message. This strategy works everywhere, while attacking the software companies only works in a few jurisdictions.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of George Bell via BlindMath
Sent: Tuesday, 28 February 2023 3:30 am
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics' <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: george at techno-vision.co.uk
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] SPSS and Jaws

Hi Jonathan,

No, I was not being funny. It is the law in America, and ideally should apply world-wide.

See below.
George

What is Section 508 and why was it created?

Section 508 was enacted to eliminate barriers in information technology, to make available new opportunities for people with disabilities, and to encourage development of technologies that will help achieve these goals.
The law applies to all Federal agencies when they develop, procure, maintain, or use electronic and information technology.

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Godfrey via BlindMath
Sent: 26 February 2023 04:31
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Jonathan Godfrey <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] SPSS and Jaws

Hello George,

I'm really not sure if you were trying to be funny with this comment or serious.

It would be nice for those of us living outside the US, if the powers that be in the US would force these US companies to meet their obligations under the ADA. 

With respect to SPSS, I reviewed their VPAT statement some years ago and found it almost unbelievable. They quite clearly did not have evaluations of their software made by screen reader users. <sigh> This was before I discovered the V in VPAT was for voluntary.

I'd love to see some trigger-happy litigator file a class action against software companies for breaches of the ADA. It won't solve Ashley's situation though.

Meanwhile, the best solution for anyone in my position is to make work for people who insist on using inaccessible software and/or systems. I decided that I would no longer pay someone sighted to help me navigate such systems with my own resources. I now put the work back onto the person wanting me to use that inaccessible system It's been quite easy really, starting with my supposed excessive annual leave problem. I was taking leave but unable to use the HR system to have it recorded or approved. When my balance got to three years' worth, I finally got a bit more attention from management and a satisfactory work around.

When it comes to software, I have structured my life in such a way that means I avoid the painful software and make use of friendly alternatives.
Thankfully, the alternatives are often free and open source.

All the best,
Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of George Bell via BlindMath
Sent: Sunday, 26 February 2023 10:37 am
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: george at techno-vision.co.uk
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] SPSS and Jaws

Does "Section 508" not cover this in the USA?
George

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Godfrey via BlindMath
Sent: 25 February 2023 06:43
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Jonathan Godfrey <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] SPSS and Jaws

Hello Ashley,

I haven't checked v27 of SPSS, but many versions prior to this were less than fully accessible to a screen reader user.

I doubt the course you are taking is going to make use of the underlying SPSS code/command language, often referred to by SPSS users as the "syntax".

You have three options worthy of consideration, and the best option will heavily depend on what support you will get from your university. Most people know I favour R, while some others like to fight with SAS code, and a relatively small number work with Stata.

All three require entry of commands entered as text in script files and all can return readable output (text of HTML).

See https://r-resources.massey.ac.nz/statsoftware/ for a rough review. I probably need to do some more updates to it on the software I haven't checked for some time.
And then https://r-resources.massey.ac.nz/help/AccessibleSTEMSoftware.html
for a "go-to" list, which also includes some mathematics software options.

Of note is the fact that I set the bar on accessibility quite high. See https://r-resources.massey.ac.nz/help/GoldStandard.html
for my definition. This was a conversation started on this list

If you decide to go down the R pathway, then there are plenty of resources to help, written in screen reader friendly HTML. I recommend you use the same workflow as many of these authors so that your work leads to an HTML file that you can deal with using your existing skills.

HTH,
Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ashley N via BlindMath
Sent: Saturday, 25 February 2023 6:55 pm
To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
Cc: Ashley N <crazy4chemistry at att.net>
Subject: [BlindMath] SPSS and Jaws

Hello,
I am a current PhD student in Education with a STEM Accessability focus at Oregon State University. I will be taking a quantitative analysis course next quarter and have been told by the instructor I will need to use SPSS 27 for my course. I am a JAWS user with the most current version of JAWS 2023.
What all do I need to know to accomplish this or if that is not accessible what should I suggest for a work around?
Thank you all!
Ashley
_______________________________________________
BlindMath mailing list
BlindMath at nfbnet.org
https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%
2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40mas
sey.ac.nz%7Cb5731727497f4c02b7dc08db16f501fc%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644
300%7C1%7C0%7C638129013803990047%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA
iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yywaqM
pMuLgJCzDCd5MnhbZTls4GJWWc8axfPJhLDxY%3D&reserved=0
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindMath:
https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%
2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org%2Fa.j.godfrey%2540massey.ac.nz&da
ta=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cb5731727497f4c02b7dc08db16f501fc%7
C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638129013803990047%7CUnknown%7CT
WFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3
D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=agBBLVH04MausQUdSlITTKxxOpLxL0LZ0j3cFMTU4Ek%3D&reser
ved=0
BlindMath Gems can be found at
<https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blinds%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf20aa466cf64baed47208db18cf5ceb%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638131051145594016%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5njuOSR4WPShKC3nApnILW3VE%2FwsRV6T8WT%2FWXEg5Hk%3D&reserved=0
%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7C870bb65c503748f08d4708db1778
b3c9%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638129579434500600%7CUnkno
wn%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI
6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=L%2BMAHoyU2UHpiu65APr3R%2B5mjStoq%2Bcyj%2FSshW
0RmfI%3D&reserved=0
cience.org%2Fblindmath-gems-home&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7
Cb5731727497f4c02b7dc08db16f501fc%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0
%7C638129013803990047%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2
luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=n5AmpQBGb4yNhIDeq
EHSjIRvte6oIMeEzZsMJive1CA%3D&reserved=0>

_______________________________________________
BlindMath mailing list
BlindMath at nfbnet.org
https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%
2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40mas
sey.ac.nz%7C870bb65c503748f08d4708db1778b3c9%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644
300%7C1%7C0%7C638129579434500600%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA
iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=7rDy2N
JPV%2FoJBqKdZbuwyQeVvgEt5RFiyZXFzaKR88M%3D&reserved=0
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindMath:
https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%
2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org%2Fgeorge%2540techno-visio&data=05
%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7C870bb65c503748f08d4708db1778b3c9%7C3887
28e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638129579434500600%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbG
Zsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3
000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=EzCdXwzKgY8YqR6WzO687fB4%2BAkoXVUtCvxyx5alwuo%3D&reserved
=0
n.co.uk
BlindMath Gems can be found at
<https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blinds%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf20aa466cf64baed47208db18cf5ceb%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638131051145594016%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5njuOSR4WPShKC3nApnILW3VE%2FwsRV6T8WT%2FWXEg5Hk%3D&reserved=0
cience.org%2Fblindmath-gems-home&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7
C870bb65c503748f08d4708db1778b3c9%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0
%7C638129579434500600%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2
luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zvo9ulm7Fwfb1qEIQ
Ft1CSjpi9zfN2K0RkM8vQAiYf0%3D&reserved=0>

_______________________________________________
BlindMath mailing list
BlindMath at nfbnet.org
https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%
2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40mas
sey.ac.nz%7C870bb65c503748f08d4708db1778b3c9%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644
300%7C1%7C0%7C638129579434500600%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA
iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=7rDy2N
JPV%2FoJBqKdZbuwyQeVvgEt5RFiyZXFzaKR88M%3D&reserved=0
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindMath:
https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%
2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org%2Fa.j.godfrey%2540massey.ac.nz&da
ta=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7C870bb65c503748f08d4708db1778b3c9%7
C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638129579434500600%7CUnknown%7CT
WFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3
D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Yvn1fv3KmNDvE26eCB3b78K9cnRTYZGtlGdmaGjdjXc%3D&reser
ved=0
BlindMath Gems can be found at
<https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blinds%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf20aa466cf64baed47208db18cf5ceb%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638131051145594016%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5njuOSR4WPShKC3nApnILW3VE%2FwsRV6T8WT%2FWXEg5Hk%3D&reserved=0
cience.org%2Fblindmath-gems-home&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7
C870bb65c503748f08d4708db1778b3c9%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0
%7C638129579434500600%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2
luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zvo9ulm7Fwfb1qEIQ
Ft1CSjpi9zfN2K0RkM8vQAiYf0%3D&reserved=0>

_______________________________________________
BlindMath mailing list
BlindMath at nfbnet.org
https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf20aa466cf64baed47208db18cf5ceb%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638131051145594016%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=R3r6qKg8%2Bnb6DObinEeL4B4w%2BJ0ujoS5hzC1p6JjILc%3D&reserved=0
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
BlindMath:
https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org%2Fgeorge%2540techno-visio&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf20aa466cf64baed47208db18cf5ceb%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638131051145594016%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=c8iKazDhCu9fvoJg%2Fm3j8lERUSwWmM3RiUuB3ABv20w%3D&reserved=0
n.co.uk
BlindMath Gems can be found at
<https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blindscience.org%2Fblindmath-gems-home&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf20aa466cf64baed47208db18cf5ceb%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638131051145594016%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=A7EuY3yp1gBPhmV4Uk%2FC3OpRPvAXtSECg37axnNSgY4%3D&reserved=0>

_______________________________________________
BlindMath mailing list
BlindMath at nfbnet.org
https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf20aa466cf64baed47208db18cf5ceb%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638131051145594016%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=R3r6qKg8%2Bnb6DObinEeL4B4w%2BJ0ujoS5hzC1p6JjILc%3D&reserved=0
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for BlindMath:
https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org%2Fa.j.godfrey%2540massey.ac.nz&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf20aa466cf64baed47208db18cf5ceb%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638131051145594016%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QRpd9xLmznh1QaZrri6w08cccm7GuxEpq1%2FNFM39jAI%3D&reserved=0
BlindMath Gems can be found at <https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blindscience.org%2Fblindmath-gems-home&data=05%7C01%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cbf20aa466cf64baed47208db18cf5ceb%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638131051145750252%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wPEdNjaBRv6g%2BtB5WNdNxmcMtfvFqBLGyTimMFKe%2BGY%3D&reserved=0>