[BlindMath] The state of math equations across solutions

Sat Mar 16 21:33:19 UTC 2024

Hello Jeff,

I would ask a sighted person to use the practice of document creation that is most native to them. Authoring content in a non-native fashion will be more work than adding the extra steps necessary with familiar software's

If they are not MS Word users, then there are relatively few alternatives that are in widespread use. By widespread, I mean users numbering in the tens of thousands.

The largest non-MS users are most likely to be LaTeX users, but if they are in a statistics or data science group using R or Python as the primary analysis software, they may well be using a flavour of markdown.

LaTeX authors who use a GUI to process their source files do not generally know how to send their source to an HTML outcome. Options include TeX4ht and latexml but this requires use of a command line unless they have configured the GUI to use the command lines in the background. I don't know of a GUI that embraces HTML output yet, but would love to learn of one. I configured TexnikCenter o do it (a long time ago).

Anyone using markdown has to work harder to go to less accessible output documents than HTML. Conversion usually involves pandoc for these authors, whether that be explicit or hidden away and run in the background.  Any sighted author using RStudio for example has their work converted to HTML very easily because everything needed to do so is already installed. Conversion to pdf (undesirable for access) requires a full blown installation of a TeX processor. That might be tinyTeX but is more commonly TeXLive or miktex.

HTH,
Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Bishop <jeff at jeffbishop.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2024 10:19 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Jonathan Godfrey <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
Subject: RE: [BlindMath] The state of math equations across solutions

Jonathan,

If you were to instruct a math professor or TA on producing MathML content without the use of Microsoft products and Math Type, what would you suggest here? Do you suggest any specific tools or would you suggest that they do it manually through the generation of the content in LaTeX?

Sorry for such a basic question, just trying to catch up in this space from a few years while focusing on other areas of accessibility.

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Godfrey via BlindMath
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2024 2:12 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Jonathan Godfrey <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] The state of math equations across solutions

Hello Justin,

First up, thanks for the link.
While I am well aware of MathType, and did have it installed on my computers when I was more frequently using MS products, it was good to check out the current situation via their website.

Like so many accessibility assessments and claims, their site seems to think screen reader users are only consumers of their content and that somehow giving me read access is sufficient. <sigh> Unfortunately the soft bigotry of low expectations is all around us.

I used to switch between LaTeX and the display format in order to create content using MathType. I assume this remains feasible. (?) Alt+\ from memory.

From what I can tell, most of my MS-loving colleagues no longer require MathType for their general use. I suspect some of them might benefit from the handwriting conversion tool, but the reality is that most sighted authors don't need MathType to get on with their job courtesy of the in-built equation editor.

I assume therefore (??) that in order to create accessibility through HTML with MathML, a person/team can use MathType to convert the math content created by non-MathType using authors. If this was the case, purchasing MathType in order to gain greater access might well be on the necessary tools list for people wanting to consume MS Word documents. Some folks might think shelling out the necessary $ for MathType is unacceptable; I saw it as a cost of disability and just got on with it until I realised I had not used it in over two years.

I'd be happy to test pandoc conversion of content created within MS Word, both using MathType and just MS Word's native equation editor. I don't have any documents to do the testing on though because so much of my life is already entrenched in HTML, both as a consumer and a producer of content.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Romack, Justin via BlindMath
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2024 4:06 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Romack, Justin <justinr at disability.tamu.edu>; Jonathan Fine via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] The state of math equations across solutions

A point of clarification…

My team uses Word with MathType (https://www.wiris.com/en/mathtype/microsoft-office/) to build out accessible math content. MathType will export HTML/MathML from Word through its suite of tools. I am not aware of a workflow with Word alone to produce HTML with MathML.

Thanks!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Justin Romack  | Assistant Director
Disability Resources | Texas A&M University
1224 TAMU | College Station, TX 77843-1224

ph: 979.845.1637 | justinr at disability.tamu.edu<mailto:justinr at disability.tamu.edu> | disability.tamu.edu
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - DIVISION OF STUDENT AFFAIRS | One Division. One Mission.

From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Diego Vicioso via BlindMath
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2024 9:31 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Diego Vicioso <viciosodiego at icloud.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] The state of math equations across solutions

I don’t believe exporting from word will give you mathML. I tried it on the word version of Mac two years ago and it wasn’t possible, although I don’t quite remember if the math was formatted as planetext or if it appeared at all. Diego > ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart This Message Is From an External Sender This message came from outside your organization.
ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd

I don’t believe exporting from word will give you mathML. I tried it on the word version of Mac two years ago and it wasn’t possible, although I don’t quite remember if the math was formatted as   planetext or if it appeared at all.

Diego

> On Mar 15, 2024, at 9:57 PM, Jonathan Godfrey via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>> wrote:

>

> Yes and no.

>

> HTML with MathML is a subset of HTML with MathJax, and the added benefit of MathJax coupling the LaTeX source alongside is that even if some obscure LaTeX is used we have a chance to unpack it.

>

> The challenge is that an immediately useful conversion from LaTeX to HTML is not within reach of most LaTeX users. If they know enough to bring in add-on packages, and use the command line to process  their documents, then the ability to use MathJax is feasible. A GUI user of LaTeX may not see how readily they can convert to HTML with MathML or MathJax.

>

> There are (at least) two options for LaTeX to HTML. I've used TeX4ht
> in the past and have a few legacy documents that are processed this
> way. I went that way because it provide the math in MathJax. I must
> admit though that I now create most content from markdown so the
> pandoc processing gives me MathJax (and therefore MathML)

>

> The question of what the output content should be delivered in ought to recognise the author's natural input methodology. Asking someone to deliver MS Word if they are primarily a LaTeX user is asking for resistance. The opposite is also true.

>

> There are nowhere nearly as many authors who start in markdown as either LaTeX or MS Word, but we have the benefit of converting to either end-product.

>

> Someone else will need to tell us (including me) if the MS Word ability to convert a docx file to HTML is sufficiently reliable. I haven't initiated a Word document in so long and I have no capability to create math content in MS Word anymore. I doubt this leads to HTML with MathJax, but if it does lead to HTML with MathML equations then that's going to be quite acceptable most of the time.

>

> Another issue I would raise for the conversation with respect to MS Word is that the version of MS Word matters. There are plenty of legacy workflows that did not lead to accessible math content in the docx file let alone any other format. A legacy MS Word file may not successfully convert to what we see in a current docx file. This matters for copying and pasting content from legacy material as compared to creating content from scratch.

>

> Jonathan

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: BlindMath
> <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On
> Behalf Of Diego Vicioso via BlindMath

> Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2024 4:06 AM

> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>

> Cc: Diego Vicioso
> <viciosodiego at icloud.com<mailto:viciosodiego at icloud.com>>

> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] The state of math equations across solutions

>

>

> Hey Jeff, if you want the best support possible  for equations, HTML
> with MathML is still the best option Diego

>

>> On Mar 15, 2024, at 10:52 AM, Jeff Bishop via BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>> wrote:

>>

>> Hello Everyone,

>>

>> If you were to offer advice to a math professor on which solution to utilize for accessible math solutions, which would you choose? Would you stick to a HTML-based solution, use Microsoft Word's Equation Editor or another solution for the widest support for math equations with both JAWS and NVDA? I have been away from this space for a while so wanting to get opinions on this as it relates to the current state of accessibility and tooling that is in market now.

>>

>> Thanks for any advice ...

>>

>> Jeff

>>

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