[BlindMath] The state of math equations across solutions

Sun Mar 17 08:51:37 UTC 2024

Dear all,

This is a very interesting discussion.

Jonathan, can you remind me, when consuming HTML, how do you read the
equations on your Braille display? How do you have JAWS configured? When I
am reading maths on a webpage, it is spoken to me but not displayed on the
Braille display. But I am also not using contracted US Braille.

Kind regards,
Bert

On Sat, 16 Mar 2024 at 21:34, Jonathan Godfrey via BlindMath <
blindmath at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> Hello Jeff,
>
> I would ask a sighted person to use the practice of document creation that
> is most native to them. Authoring content in a non-native fashion will be
> more work than adding the extra steps necessary with familiar software's
>
> If they are not MS Word users, then there are relatively few alternatives
> that are in widespread use. By widespread, I mean users numbering in the
> tens of thousands.
>
> The largest non-MS users are most likely to be LaTeX users, but if they
> are in a statistics or data science group using R or Python as the primary
> analysis software, they may well be using a flavour of markdown.
>
> LaTeX authors who use a GUI to process their source files do not generally
> know how to send their source to an HTML outcome. Options include TeX4ht
> and latexml but this requires use of a command line unless they have
> configured the GUI to use the command lines in the background. I don't know
> of a GUI that embraces HTML output yet, but would love to learn of one. I
> configured TexnikCenter o do it (a long time ago).
>
> Anyone using markdown has to work harder to go to less accessible output
> documents than HTML. Conversion usually involves pandoc for these authors,
> whether that be explicit or hidden away and run in the background.  Any
> sighted author using RStudio for example has their work converted to HTML
> very easily because everything needed to do so is already installed.
> Conversion to pdf (undesirable for access) requires a full blown
> installation of a TeX processor. That might be tinyTeX but is more commonly
> TeXLive or miktex.
>
> HTH,
> Jonathan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Bishop <jeff at jeffbishop.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2024 10:19 AM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jonathan Godfrey <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
> Subject: RE: [BlindMath] The state of math equations across solutions
>
> Jonathan,
>
> If you were to instruct a math professor or TA on producing MathML content
> without the use of Microsoft products and Math Type, what would you suggest
> here? Do you suggest any specific tools or would you suggest that they do
> it manually through the generation of the content in LaTeX?
>
> Sorry for such a basic question, just trying to catch up in this space
> from a few years while focusing on other areas of accessibility.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan
> Godfrey via BlindMath
> Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2024 2:12 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jonathan Godfrey <A.J.Godfrey at massey.ac.nz>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] The state of math equations across solutions
>
> Hello Justin,
>
> First up, thanks for the link.
> While I am well aware of MathType, and did have it installed on my
> computers when I was more frequently using MS products, it was good to
> check out the current situation via their website.
>
> Like so many accessibility assessments and claims, their site seems to
> think screen reader users are only consumers of their content and that
> somehow giving me read access is sufficient. <sigh> Unfortunately the soft
> bigotry of low expectations is all around us.
>
> I used to switch between LaTeX and the display format in order to create
> content using MathType. I assume this remains feasible. (?) Alt+\ from
> memory.
>
> From what I can tell, most of my MS-loving colleagues no longer require
> MathType for their general use. I suspect some of them might benefit from
> the handwriting conversion tool, but the reality is that most sighted
> authors don't need MathType to get on with their job courtesy of the
> in-built equation editor.
>
> I assume therefore (??) that in order to create accessibility through HTML
> with MathML, a person/team can use MathType to convert the math content
> created by non-MathType using authors. If this was the case, purchasing
> MathType in order to gain greater access might well be on the necessary
> tools list for people wanting to consume MS Word documents. Some folks
> might think shelling out the necessary $ for MathType is unacceptable; I
> saw it as a cost of disability and just got on with it until I realised I
> had not used it in over two years.
>
> I'd be happy to test pandoc conversion of content created within MS Word,
> both using MathType and just MS Word's native equation editor. I don't have
> any documents to do the testing on though because so much of my life is
> already entrenched in HTML, both as a consumer and a producer of content.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Romack,
> Justin via BlindMath
> Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2024 4:06 AM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Romack, Justin <justinr at disability.tamu.edu>; Jonathan Fine via
> BlindMath <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] The state of math equations across solutions
>
> A point of clarification…
>
> My team uses Word with MathType (
> https://www.wiris.com/en/mathtype/microsoft-office/) to build out
> accessible math content. MathType will export HTML/MathML from Word through
> its suite of tools. I am not aware of a workflow with Word alone to produce
> HTML with MathML.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Justin Romack  | Assistant Director
> Disability Resources | Texas A&M University
> 1224 TAMU | College Station, TX 77843-1224
>
> ph: 979.845.1637 | justinr at disability.tamu.edu<mailto:
> justinr at disability.tamu.edu> | disability.tamu.edu
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - DIVISION OF STUDENT
> AFFAIRS | One Division. One Mission.
>
> From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Diego Vicioso
> via BlindMath
> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2024 9:31 PM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Diego Vicioso <viciosodiego at icloud.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] The state of math equations across solutions
>
> I don’t believe exporting from word will give you mathML. I tried it on
> the word version of Mac two years ago and it wasn’t possible, although I
> don’t quite remember if the math was formatted as planetext or if it
> appeared at all. Diego > ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart This Message Is From an
> External Sender This message came from outside your organization.
> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>
> I don’t believe exporting from word will give you mathML. I tried it on
> the word version of Mac two years ago and it wasn’t possible, although I
> don’t quite remember if the math was formatted as   planetext or if it
> appeared at all.
>
>
>
>
>
> Diego
>
>
>
> > On Mar 15, 2024, at 9:57 PM, Jonathan Godfrey via BlindMath <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Yes and no.
>
> >
>
> > HTML with MathML is a subset of HTML with MathJax, and the added benefit
> of MathJax coupling the LaTeX source alongside is that even if some obscure
> LaTeX is used we have a chance to unpack it.
>
> >
>
> > The challenge is that an immediately useful conversion from LaTeX to
> HTML is not within reach of most LaTeX users. If they know enough to bring
> in add-on packages, and use the command line to process  their documents,
> then the ability to use MathJax is feasible. A GUI user of LaTeX may not
> see how readily they can convert to HTML with MathML or MathJax.
>
> >
>
> > There are (at least) two options for LaTeX to HTML. I've used TeX4ht
> > in the past and have a few legacy documents that are processed this
> > way. I went that way because it provide the math in MathJax. I must
> > admit though that I now create most content from markdown so the
> > pandoc processing gives me MathJax (and therefore MathML)
>
> >
>
> > The question of what the output content should be delivered in ought to
> recognise the author's natural input methodology. Asking someone to deliver
> MS Word if they are primarily a LaTeX user is asking for resistance. The
> opposite is also true.
>
> >
>
> > There are nowhere nearly as many authors who start in markdown as either
> LaTeX or MS Word, but we have the benefit of converting to either
> end-product.
>
> >
>
> > Someone else will need to tell us (including me) if the MS Word ability
> to convert a docx file to HTML is sufficiently reliable. I haven't
> initiated a Word document in so long and I have no capability to create
> math content in MS Word anymore. I doubt this leads to HTML with MathJax,
> but if it does lead to HTML with MathML equations then that's going to be
> quite acceptable most of the time.
>
> >
>
> > Another issue I would raise for the conversation with respect to MS Word
> is that the version of MS Word matters. There are plenty of legacy
> workflows that did not lead to accessible math content in the docx file let
> alone any other format. A legacy MS Word file may not successfully convert
> to what we see in a current docx file. This matters for copying and pasting
> content from legacy material as compared to creating content from scratch.
>
> >
>
> > Jonathan
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: BlindMath
> > <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On
> > Behalf Of Diego Vicioso via BlindMath
>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2024 4:06 AM
>
> > To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> > <blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>>
>
> > Cc: Diego Vicioso
> > <viciosodiego at icloud.com<mailto:viciosodiego at icloud.com>>
>
> > Subject: Re: [BlindMath] The state of math equations across solutions
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Hey Jeff, if you want the best support possible  for equations, HTML
> > with MathML is still the best option Diego
>
> >
>
> >> On Mar 15, 2024, at 10:52 AM, Jeff Bishop via BlindMath <
> blindmath at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindmath at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> Hello Everyone,
>
> >>
>
> >> If you were to offer advice to a math professor on which solution to
> utilize for accessible math solutions, which would you choose? Would you
> stick to a HTML-based solution, use Microsoft Word's Equation Editor or
> another solution for the widest support for math equations with both JAWS
> and NVDA? I have been away from this space for a while so wanting to get
> opinions on this as it relates to the current state of accessibility and
> tooling that is in market now.
>
> >>
>
> >> Thanks for any advice ...
>
> >>
>
> >> Jeff
>
> >>
>
> >> _______________________________________________
>
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> >.
>
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> >> a
>
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> > godfrey*40massey.ac.nz__%3BJQ!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGCqe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ9cRIkB4G
> > jpFLNe99F29QGj5nIv7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2WhRramerdZu_QA7%24&data
> > =05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Ca541c979d8184a86053608dc45cac1
> > 82%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638461984388710080%7CU
> > nknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1ha
> > WwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2B1NUYPhiRmo2lpxS4ukTw1iBKKIeTy%
> > 2BAKx%2B9HexI4Ds%3D&reserved=0>
>
> > BlindMath Gems can be found at
> > <https://url/
> > defense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blindscience.org%2Fblindmath-gem
> > s-home__%3B!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGCqe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ9cRIkB4GjpFLNe99F29QGj5nIv
> > 7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2WhRramerX88TPNp%24&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.god
> > frey%40massey.ac.nz%7Ca541c979d8184a86053608dc45cac182%7C388728e1bbd04
> > 37898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638461984388714909%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb
> > 3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%
> > 7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9qmGs4xSMG1o%2B%2BrXnnH6Sa%2BYMMnoJ%2FOppDOWHtZ%2Fq
> > z4%3D&reserved=0<http://h/
> > ttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2Fwww.blindscience.org%2F
> > blindmath-gems-home__%3B!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGCqe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ9cRIkB4GjpFLN
> > e99F29QGj5nIv7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2WhRramerX88TPNp%24&data=05%7
> > C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Ca541c979d8184a86053608dc45cac182%7C
> > 388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638461984388719386%7CUnknow
> > n%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLC
> > JXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fGrWpTgLnYudheez5cb%2B4DUBC0BVZzE%2Bqt
> > 7v5cQzcdw%3D&reserved=0>>
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> > BlindMath mailing list
>
> > BlindMath at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindMath at nfbnet.org>
>
> > https://urld/
> > efense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbli
> > ndmath_nfbnet.org__%3B!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGCqe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ9cRIkB4GjpFLNe9
> > 9F29QGj5nIv7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2WhRramerYZWM-44%24&data=05%7C0
> > 2%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Ca541c979d8184a86053608dc45cac182%7C38
> > 8728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638461984388723819%7CUnknown%
> > 7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJX
> > VCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xy7MIJCqSeRCSLNnGv42awimqZb5IxIAJ3XLQBAF
> > ja4%3D&reserved=0<https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> > https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2
> > Flistinfo%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org__%3B!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGCqe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ
> > 9cRIkB4GjpFLNe99F29QGj5nIv7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2WhRramerYZWM-44
> > %24&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Ca541c979d8184a86053608
> > dc45cac182%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C63846198438872
> > 8668%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBT
> > iI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=J%2Fa3pNjdoE0UoOxkjBreru%
> > 2BJxxFfopaCfAfBdxQGN%2Fw%3D&reserved=0>
>
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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> > efense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblin
> > dmath_nfbnet.org%2Fviciosodiego*40icloud.com__%3BJQ!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGC
> > qe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ9cRIkB4GjpFLNe99F29QGj5nIv7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2W
> > hRramereY2vI27%24&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Ca541c979
> > d8184a86053608dc45cac182%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C
> > 638461984388733550%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjo
> > iV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9i073fXDlZO
> > cRyOhKS10pCsGSrx7daoCHNw9xq4OMt8%3D&reserved=0<https://apc01.safelinks/
> > .protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fapc01.safelinks%2F&data=05%
> > 7C02%7CA.J.Godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Cb1f6b68c4dd445ab8e4608dc45febfde%7
> > C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638462207696115610%7CUnkno
> > wn%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiL
> > CJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=15km3HDF4zZhnfuV6S6FCp8Cug7fM52Jh6yDN
> > 0jEh%2B8%3D&reserved=0
> > /
> > .protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__htt
> > p%3A%2Fnfbnet.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fblindmath_nfbnet.org%2Fvicioso
> > diego*40icloud.com__%3BJQ!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGCqe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ9cRIkB4GjpFL
> > Ne99F29QGj5nIv7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2WhRramereY2vI27%24&data=05%
> > 7C02%7Ca.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Ca541c979d8184a86053608dc45cac182%7
> > C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638461984388738540%7CUnkno
> > wn%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiL
> > CJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3qKx82UTJ89D5mNG9jPQs7eE3v0mmuZQ23hr4
> > 5WaWGc%3D&reserved=0>
>
> > BlindMath Gems can be found at
> > <https://url/
> > defense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blindscience.org%2Fblindmath-gem
> > s-home__%3B!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGCqe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ9cRIkB4GjpFLNe99F29QGj5nIv
> > 7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2WhRramerX88TPNp%24&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.god
> > frey%40massey.ac.nz%7Ca541c979d8184a86053608dc45cac182%7C388728e1bbd04
> > 37898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638461984388744214%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb
> > 3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%
> > 7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yUE7tzrufgjrLFHXq3Joezhwz1LDxeK51UKS3lkISj4%3D&rese
> > rved=0<https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F
> > %2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2Fwww.blindscience.org%2Fblindmath-
> > gems-home__%3B!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGCqe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ9cRIkB4GjpFLNe99F29QGj5
> > nIv7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2WhRramerX88TPNp%24&data=05%7C02%7Ca.j.
> > godfrey%40massey.ac.nz%7Ca541c979d8184a86053608dc45cac182%7C388728e1bb
> > d0437898dcf8682e644300%7C1%7C0%7C638461984388749476%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbG
> > Zsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%
> > 3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gYIgwoYHyfwNpTD6HfRs16IrIekLzGPq5XT1mcF6S24%3D&r
> > eserved=0>>
>
>
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> _______________________________________________
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> BlindMath at nfbnet.org<mailto:BlindMath at nfbnet.org>
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> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org__;!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGCqe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ9cRIkB4GjpFLNe99F29QGj5nIv7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2WhRramerYZWM-44$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org__;!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGCqe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ9cRIkB4GjpFLNe99F29QGj5nIv7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2WhRramerYZWM-44$
> >
>
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> BlindMath:
>
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/justinr*40disability.tamu.edu__;JQ!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGCqe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ9cRIkB4GjpFLNe99F29QGj5nIv7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2WhRrameraNyu_cz$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/justinr*40disability.tamu.edu__;JQ!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGCqe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ9cRIkB4GjpFLNe99F29QGj5nIv7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2WhRrameraNyu_cz$
> >
>
> BlindMath Gems can be found at <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home__;!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGCqe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ9cRIkB4GjpFLNe99F29QGj5nIv7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2WhRramerX88TPNp$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home__;!!KwNVnqRv!B9vhXTGCqe1fnaE6_Cq4JQ9cRIkB4GjpFLNe99F29QGj5nIv7JQLFtCGdXVLqJ-5HHi2AB85ZWeD2WhRramerX88TPNp$
> >>
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> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/a.j.godfrey%40massey.ac.nz
> BlindMath Gems can be found at <
> http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
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> BlindMath:
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> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/jeff%40jeffbishop.com
> BlindMath Gems can be found at <
> http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
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> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindmath_nfbnet.org/b.vanlandeghem%40sheffield.ac.uk
> BlindMath Gems can be found at <
> http://www.blindscience.org/blindmath-gems-home>
>