[Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind

Tue May 26 14:41:53 UTC 2009

HI Paul,

This is an interesting topic and it also gets pretty complicated, at
least where I am concerned.

As far as your question about making that initial contact, I would say
it is very appropriate.  I would most certainly prefer a light touch on
my shoulder than having someone talk to someone who is with me,
inquiring as to what I might like to order, as if I weren't there, or as
if I were a child.  I do not  object to this at all.

I have noted in this discussion that there are several people who have
said they don't like to be touched.  I have the opposite problem.
Whether it has anything to do with blindness or not, I really don't
know, but I am a person who is tactile, and or affectionate with people
that I know.

This is gotten me crossways with several people, as I have learned,
sometimes the hard way, that some of us don't' appreciate being touched.

As a tactile person myself, that is something that I have a real hard
time fathoming or remembering.  I don't grab and cling to strangers by
any means, but when there is a person who I know, like or associate
with, it is not uncommon for me to reach out and want to hug someone or
look at their hairstyle, or place a hand gently on their arm or shoulder
when speaking to them.  I also welcome warm handshakes, hugs, and the
like from those whom I consider friends and associates. I have had to
learn that some people object to this, and it isn't always easy to
remember.

Now, like I said, it gets complicated, because  what I do object to is
those well meaning sighted people, many of them strangers, who want to
grab me or my clothes or coat or whatever, thinking that they are
helping to guide me or saving me from falling off a curb or something
like that.

There is a lady who does this every day at the bus stop in the evening,
and I just want to slap her sometimes.  They wouldn't take liberties
with and/or manhandle a sighted person like that, and I do not
appreciate it either.

Diane Graves
Civil Rights Specialist
Indiana Civil Rights Commission
Alternative Dispute Resolutions Unit
317-232-2647

"IT is service that measures success."
George Washington Carver

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-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Weingartner, Paul
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:02 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind

 This is an interesting topic that is very helpful because of the
candidness of the respondents.  Because of that I would like to ask a
question.
Sighted people use eye contact to initiate communication.  Obviously,
that does not work for initiating communication with a person who is
blind.  That is why it is awkward for a waitress in a restaurant or for
a stranger in a mall to make first contact in a way to know the speaker
is addressing the person who is blind.
A number of totally blind friends recommend a light quick touch to let
them know they are the person being addressed, so that is what I
recommend.  I was wondering what some or you think.
Also, many people who are totally blind like to hold and cling during a
conversation.  That can get pretty awkward and down right embarrassing a
times. 
I would appreciate your thoughts.

Paul Weingartner
Making the Cross Accessible
Center for the Blind of the Assemblies of God
P 417.831.1964   F 417.862.5120
www.blind.ag.org
www.blindonline.ag.org

-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:47 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind

It has nothing to do with blindness in my case.  I just hate being
touched.

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "dewey bradley" <dewey.bradley at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind

> Allot of sighted people think that they can't talk to us without
putting
> there hands on us.
> The thing is allot of people like my self really hate to be touched,
When 
> we
> ask them to please take there hands off, they get mad.
> I guess there is no across the board answer for things like this.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 10:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>
>
>> This is a very complicated topic.  There are those, like me, who
don't
>> like being touched during conversations with individuals I really
don't
>> know very well.  I'm wondering if blind individuals understand
spacial
>> concepts during conversations.  You don't want to be too close during
a
>> conversation or too far away.  I suspect most of us who understand
this
>> art have had some coaching from sighted individuals whom they trust.
>> \
>> Steve
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "trishs" <slosser at metrocast.net>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>
>>
>>>I was raised giving and receiving warm hand shakes, or in some
>>> situations, embraces and or kisses, all of which seem to me to be
>>> quite germ spreading!  I like the bowing idea a lot!
>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: Joel Zimba <jzimba at cavtel.net
>>>>To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>Date sent: Sat, 23 May 2009 17:08:35 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings; Behaviors in adults blind
>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>>I love these kinds of topics.  I believe the issue of blind or
>>> sighted
>>>>is mostly meaningless when it comes to whether you should touch
>>> someone
>>>>or not.  It comes down more to how comfortable you are with what
>>> you are
>>>>doing and your motivation for it.
>>>
>>>>The examples of folks talking with their hands is a great one.
>>> It's not
>>>>so much that they talk with their hands, but that touching is a
>>> means of
>>>>communication.  In fact, if you are comfortable enough with
>>> yurself to
>>>>touch someone else while speaking to them, you'll pull them into
>>> your
>>>>paradigm.  This is common wisdom in the sales world.
>>>
>>>>For the blind among us, (myself included) this is most easily
>>> donw with
>>>>the back of the hand and making solid contact.
>>>
>>>>When it comes to shaking hands, I decided to take the initiative
>>> early
>>>>and often.  When someone doesn't take my hand, I leave it out
>>> there and
>>>>then eventually start snapping my fingers.  This calls attention
>>> to the
>>>>fact that the other people are not playing the social game.  I
>>> was
>>>>taught that it is not obligatory for women to shake hands.  Long
>>> ago I
>>>>decided that if women want equal rights, they can do the glad
>>> handing as
>>>>well, so I expect them to shake and I do the snapping as well.  I
>>>>sometimes let the elderly off the hook, though oddly, the older
>>> someone
>>>>is, the more likely they are to initiate or take my hand.  Proper
>>>>conduct seems to not always be taught to the younger generation.
>>> Maybe
>>>>we all need to go back to finishing school.
>>>
>>>>Now, if someone could explain the bowing protocol to me so that
>>> my Asian
>>>>friends would be surprised and pleased by my manners, I would be
>>> very
>>>>greatful.
>>>
>>>>Joel
>>>
>>>>On 5/23/2009 12:40 PM, Jeffrey Schwartz wrote:
>>>>> Hi Gerardo,
>>>>> I am also blind as a result of RP and a clinical psychologist.
>>> My vision
>>>>> deteriorated at a different pace.  I drove a car until I was 27
>>> and did not
>>>>> require adaptive technology to read and write until I was about
>>> 40.  Now, at
>>>>> 61, I have little more than light perception.  When younger, I
>>> was often
>>>>> embarrassed when my wife kindly noted that someone was reaching
>>> out to shake
>>>>> my hand and I was not noticing.  Eventually, I learned to avoid
>>> this problem
>>>>> by taking the initiative.  On occasion I reach out to discover
>>> that the
>>>>> person has quickly turned their back or departed, no big deal.
>>> I have had
>>>>> no experience with the touching.  There are cultural differences
>>> in such
>>>>> nonverbal behaviors.  For example, cultures vary in terms of
>>> what is
>>>>> regarded as personal space.  Groups vary in terms of how close
>>> they stand to
>>>>> each other when speaking, and also with regard to touching which
>>> is common
>>>>> in some cultures and taboo in others.  Perhaps your blindness
>>> has led you to
>>>>> exceed what is common in your culture or your parents may have
>>> felt bad for
>>>>> you when they saw you reach out to touch someone and the person
>>> had
>>>>> departed.  There are also a group of behaviors known as
>>> blindisms.  We all
>>>>> conduct little rituals of personal hygiene when alone which we
>>> would not do
>>>>> in front of others.  There is a tendency, particularly if one
>>> loses their
>>>>> vision gradually to assume that others see as we do.  I am often
>>> surprised
>>>>> by what others can see.  We assume that if we can't see
>>> something others can
>>>>> not either.  This can lead us to embarrass ourselves by
>>> performing these
>>>>> grooming rituals in public.  Recently, I have noticed that when
>>> I am walking
>>>>> and thinking about a conversation which I had or will have with
>>> someone, I
>>>>> am moving my lips as if I were speaking.  I am working on
>>> suppressing this
>>>>> behavior as I am certain that the sighted would see it as
>>> strange.  Behavior
>>>>> is so ritualized, and blindness can lead us to engage in some
>>> peculiar ones.
>>>>> As professionals, in particular, we don't want to be seen as odd
>>> or
>>>>> idiosyncratic.
>>>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:55 AM
>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Greetings;Behaviors in adults blind
>>>
>>>>> Gerardo,
>>>
>>>>> Most of the time, when I would like to shake the hand of a
>>> sighted person, I
>>>
>>>>> just extend my hand and they grasp it and we shake hands.
>>>
>>>>> As far as touching the arm of people, I've never done this.
>>> When do you do
>>>>> this?  If you're talking with someone, it shouldn't be
>>> necessary, since
>>>>> they're participating in the conversation.  I think we've all
>>> experienced a
>>>>> time when we're talking to someone and learn that they walked
>>> away.  Now, if
>>>
>>>>> you're referring to touching a person's arm to make sure they're
>>> still there
>>>
>>>>> as a way to insure that you still have their attention, that's
>>> something
>>>>> different.  I have met sighted people who talk with their hands
>>> and touch my
>>>
>>>>> arm or shoulder, for emphasis.  So, that might not be so
>>> unusual.
>>>
>>>>> Cindy
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Gerardo Corripio"<gera1027 at prodigy.net.mx
>>>>> To: "Blind-Talk"<blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 11:35 PM
>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Greetings;Behaviors in adults blind
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Hi listers:
>>>>> I'm Gerardo from Mexico; 31 years old and a Psychologist working
>>> on my own
>>>>> in my private practice.
>>>>> Hopefully I'll be able to learn lots of great things from you
>>> guys,
>>>>> especially of the NFB way of viewing and living with blindness.
>>>>> Now for my debut question: I've been blind all my life due to
>>> RP; since I
>>>>> was a teenager I remember developing a habbit of touching the
>>> arm of the
>>>>> people constanly to be sure he/she was still there.  I continued
>>> to do this
>>>>> into adulthood until my family made the observation that this
>>> behavior isn't
>>>>> seen well by the sighted only a few days ago.  I'm still shocked
>>> by this
>>>>> observation to the point that now how to know if the person is
>>> still there?
>>>>> Yes, the voice gives feedback but when people talk it feels as
>>> if they're
>>>>> there but aren't there.  How have you coped with this situation
>>> in that you
>>>>> have to get rid of the habbit before-mentioned? Surely it has
>>> happened to
>>>>> some of you?
>>>>> also when shaking hands with sighted people how to find the hand
>>> to shake if
>>>>> the sighted person doesn't take the initiative?
>>>>> As you can see I've still have lots of tips and tricks to learn
>>> about
>>>>> blindness, thus my interest in joining the list.
>>>>> Gerardo
>>>
>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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