[Blindtlk] Resolution that didn't pass about apple
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson at visi.com
Sun Sep 4 18:39:49 UTC 2011
Joseph and others,
One of the things that has really made me feel uneasy with respect to any discussions regarding Apple is how people
feel that Apple can do nothing wrong. As much as people can criticize how we might look at Google versus Apple,
people need also to look at how we look at Apple versus other companies. In addition, Apple plays what appears to
me to be a somewhat unique role in their arena and it means that they have both more power and more responsibility
than do other companies in terms of accessibility. I have to say that I have never been a "Condemn and deplore"
guy, believing that approach is more for show than for really getting anything done, but I also feel that some of the
opposition to these resolutions are based partly on a lack of understanding of a number of technical issues and
political realities. Also, I
think there is a sort of collision between our culture and Apple's that we're going to all have to work through because
we need to get along with Apple and I think they need to get along with us as well.
First, Joseph, your Adobe Photo Shop analogy is really a poor one. There is no reason that I can see why their menu
structure and help system shouldn't be accessible. That doesn't mean they have to translate pictures for me as you
imply. Because I was able to use the menus on PCPaint many years ago, I was able to help my sighted kids to learn
the basics. Is that really so ridiculous? Would I feel we should go to the mat to get such accessibility? Probably not,
but the concept isn't as unrealistic as you make it out to be.
Some of us had some concerns about how VoiceOver worked early on and had the opportunity to express those
concerns to Apple. VoiceOver is more dependent upon developers following rules than has been the case with
screen readers under Microsoft. One of our concerns was whether there would be problems getting software
developers for the MAC to do what was necessary. One of the things that was emphasized to us by Apple personel
was that Apple
exercises a good bit of control over applications that are sold for the MAC. In addition, there were a limited number of
development platforms so we didn't need to worry our little heads about whether applications would be accessible.
This has seemed to be largely true, but it means that I tend to worry more when there appears to be slippage.
Another thing that needs to be considered is that Microsoft, Adobe, GW Micro, Freedom Scientific, Google, Dell, Asus,
Acer, Hewlet-Packard and other companies all are pieces of the larger accessibility picture in the Windows world. I
would like to see Microsoft take more control over applications written for Windows, but they don't have the same sort
of control that apple has, partly by their choice, but partly because of how computers that run Windows have evolved.
We don't always know why something is not accessible, where the finger should be pointed. It makes it harder to
know whom should be condemned and deplored. <smile> That's not to say there shouldn't be more condemning and
deploring if one likes that sort of thing. Apple, on the other hand, provides the hardware, the operating system, the
screen reader, and much of the software. They exercise a good deal of control over the development of other
software as well. Apple is therefore in a position to enforce accessibility in a way that nobody else can at this point.
Because of the
relatively closed nature of development for the Apple, if they don't enforce it, we'll be out of luck. The word "closed"
is used here not as a negative, but rather to describe how development works in that environment and that there isn't
the same ability to get information that might make an inaccessible application accessible that currently exists under
Windows. Having said that, the Windows world is moving in a direction that is similar to where Apple already is, so
how Apple handles all of this could well set the tone for what happens with Windows in the years to come. We have
seen cases where companies do what they need to to make things accessible enough to meet regulations and then
the priority goes down. We can't afford to let that happen with Apple. I think that if we were to see Adobe give an
award to an electronic text that could have been accessible but wasn't, that we'd be every bit as unhappy. We were
pretty unhappy with Google's original inaccessible books and we let them know it, but you will probably recall that
there were some other issues involved there besides Google's efforts, and there had been some effort made by
Google to work with us. While Adobe and Google have certainly not been perfect, they have tended to reach out to
us. We had a representative from Adobe at our NFBCS meeting this year.
Joseph, you mentioned that Apple's accessibility team was upset with both of our resolutions.
If that is the case, I find it particularly upsetting. If even the thought of criticizing Apple gets them upset, even if it is
voted down, that seems extremely controlling to me. Apple has gone beyond the call of duty to do what they have to
make things accessible and we need to give them credit. However, we also should not forget that they could not
have gotten into some of the markets that are important to them without making their products accessible. Schools
are now buying I Pads left and right, and that couldn't have happened without making them accessible because of
legal requirements. They responded to this challenge in a positive and even imaginative way, but it cost them money
and took some time. If not for blind consumer groups such as the NFB, they would not have had to spend that time
and money, so they probably didn't feel inclined to look favorably upon us from the start. They are much less likely to
talk about where they are headed in certain areas than is Microsoft, for example. Therefore, we don't always know
what shortcomings they plan to address already or what we should be trying to call to their attention. It means that we
can't be as constructive as we might be if we had more information. That's what I meant by a clash in cultures, they
don't tend to share plans with or seek input from anyone. <smile>
So let's figure out how best to move ahead. I just don't see where either resolution was out of line given the uniquely
strong role Apple plays in software development and given its control over hardware, software, operating system, and
screen reader. I also think that the strong opposition to the resolutions indicates that we have to take into account
the feelings of our membership on this in the future. There is still a sort of honeymoon with apple for many and as an
organization we need to reflect the will of our membership. People need to understand, though, that there is a lot that
is unique in this situation and that we're far more dependent upon Apple to make their products accessible than we
are upon Microsoft, even though Microsoft certainly has power as well.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 05:46:28 -0700, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>Talk to me when Adobe makes Photoshop for the blind.
>OH WAIT, that doesn't make sense. It's a complex editing program for
>photographs and other graphics. In order for it to be possible, you
>would have to somehow be able to invent some magical technology that
>allows blind people to see every shadow, every leaf, every color in
>all of the 16.7 million possible combinations to pixel-level
>accuracy.
>The resolution demanded that Apple refuse to approve ANY APPLICATION
>that was not completely accessible. This includes photo editors like
>Photoshop, every video game, etc., and went so far as to condemn and
>deplore the fact that they have not done so already!
>If you think that the only applications that can be allowed to exist
>are those useful to the blind, then you seriously need to begin
>living on Planet Earth. A blind person cannot use Photoshop. They
>can do graphics (I have done graphics, under sleepshade, so it can be
>done!), but the way a blind person does them is necessarily not going
>to be the way a sighted person does it. Visual vs. non-visual
>techniques, right?
>You'd be amazed what you can accomplish with CSS on a website without
>vision, and for more complex graphics there's SVG. SVG is kind of
>complicated to do because it's a pretty complex XML format for which
>presently no easy editor exists that we can use. But several
>websites now use the very sharp Whozit graphic I made using for
>Oregon using the SVG vector format. It can be done. But not with
>Photoshop.
>Joseph
>On Sat, Sep 03, 2011 at 02:57:43PM -0500, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>Hello Cheryl and everyone,
>>
>> It's a shame that both Apple resolutions didn't pass. While it's true
>>Apple has done much to make their products usable by the blind we can't let
>>the "Let's be grateful for what they've done" attitude prevent us from
>>pushing them to the next level. I'd like to see that resolution brought back
>>next year and broadened to include other software vendors such as Microsoft.
>>If we don't force software creators to build in accessibility to their
>>products by requiring such accessibility as an award criteria for
>>outstanding development of their products. If we don't and software produced
>>by Apple and others becomes inaccessible to the blind we will have only
>>ourselves to blame by not insisting that those who reward software creators
>>for outstanding development and product usage are not required to include
>>accessibility features for the blind and disabled. Again it's a crying shame
>>that both Apple resolutions didn't pass. We could pay the price for this
>>failure in the future. I certainly hope not.
>>
>>Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
>>To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 11:58 AM
>>Subject: [Blindtlk] Resolution that didn't pass about apple
>>
>>
>>Well maybe people on this list that voted against it elaborate as to why
>>they voted against it.
>>
>>
>>Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>>
>>Cheryl Echevarria
>>http://www.echevarriatravel.com
>>631-456-5394
>>reservations at echevarriatravel.com
>>
>>Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Superior Travel, located in
>>Baldwin, NY. www.superiortravel.com
>>
>>Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise & Travel, Inc.
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at att.net>
>>To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:56 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] [Bulk] Re: a great article
>>
>>
>>> Ah yes, I have a recording of the stream of that particular days' events.
>>> I must say, that was quite an episode.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>
>>> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>>>
>>> Skype name:
>>> barefootedray
>>>
>>> Facebook:
>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 2, 2011, at 3:31 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote:
>>>
>>> > An example of not all of us following like zombies, at the national
>>> > convention. A resolution about apple. Don't quite remember the wordage,
>>> > but
>>> > it did not pass. More than half of the floor voted against it. If you
>>> > were
>>> > at the convention you would know what I am talking about.
>>> >
>>> > I was one of the many who voted against the resolution. I didn't think
>>> > it
>>> > was fair, and not something the NFB needed to make an resolution for.
>>> >
>>> > Others are welcome to chime in here...
>>> > Marsha
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> > On
>>> > Behalf Of Bryan Schulz
>>> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 10:19 PM
>>> > To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> > Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>> >
>>> > hi,
>>> >
>>> > no point in rehashing the lost funds as they have been forgiven in the
>>> > midwest.
>>> > i was the only one to push the issue and was blasted for it. it's things
>>> > like that which make the nfb taste bitter.
>>> >
>>> > Not all of us just follow in line like zombies.
>>> >
>>> > I'd like to see more examples of that.
>>> >
>>> > Bryan Schulz
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
>>> > To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:14 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> This thread is very tiring, very frustrating and gets us no where. So
>>> >> if
>>> >> us
>>> >> NFB members never ask the tough questions, and look the other way. What
>>> >> was
>>> >> the illegal behavior your speaking of? I am pretty sure if there was
>>> >> any
>>> >> illegal behavior, we just as much any other person would ask the
>>> >> "tough"
>>> >> questions. Not all of us just follow in line like zombies.
>>> >>
>>> >> If your so anti-NFB, why do you hang out here. Your welcome to leave
>>> >> any
>>> >> time. We would rather you go away. So our list can go back to being
>>> >> constructive and productive. Oh wait that is right, we are all lyres,
>>> >> we
>>> >> allow illegal behavior, and follow like zombies. You can think what you
>>> >> want. But this skirting around subjects does nothing. We are not going
>>> >> to
>>> >> change our minds about what we think.
>>> >>
>>> >> Marsha
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> >> On
>>> >> Behalf Of Bryan Schulz
>>> >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:07 PM
>>> >> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> >> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>> >>
>>> >> hi,
>>> >>
>>> >> no, i'm not accusing anyone, the event already happened.
>>> >> the point is don't ask tough questions unless you have thick skin.
>>> >>
>>> >> Bryan Schulz
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >> From: "T. Joseph Carter" <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>>> >> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 5:49 PM
>>> >> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> I see, my mistake.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> You aren't taking pot shots at the ACB without facts to back it up.
>>> >>> You
>>> >>> are taking pot shots at the NFB without facts.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> It takes a lot of guts to come into an organization and start accusing
>>> >>> its
>>> >>
>>> >>> members of vaguely illegal activities without offering any specifics
>>> >>> or
>>> >>> evidence. But I'm sure doing so will get you all the consideration
>>> >>> you're
>>> >>
>>> >>> due.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> And with that, I think I'm about finished with the discussion.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Joseph - KF7QZC
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 05:36:54PM -0500, Bryan Schulz wrote:
>>> >>>> hi,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> no, i'm not talking about the acb but the point still applies.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Bryan Schulz
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter"
>>> >>>> <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>>> >>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 5:09 PM
>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> I suggest if that helps you maximize your involvement with and
>>> >>>>> benefit
>>> >>>>> from an organization, you find another organization.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Perhaps though, we don't want to go down this road, or at least not
>>> >>>>> in
>>> >>>>> this fashion. The ACB has in the past allowed its members to make
>>> >>>>> baseless, unsupported, and uncontested claims of illegal behavior by
>>> >>>>> the
>>> >>>>> NFB. It was rather off-putting, and I'd have thought so even if I
>>> >>>>> were
>>> >>>>> not a Federationist! Indeed, it seems always to be so, in any
>>> >>>>> organization, whether or not I have any affiliation with anybody.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> If there's something new and recent that needs to be discussed
>>> >>>>> regarding
>>> >>>>> the ACB, we should probably do it, but in a new thread with the
>>> >>>>> relevant
>>> >>>>> details. If it's a rehash of old wrongdoings by former officers, I
>>> >>>>> don't
>>> >>
>>> >>>>> know how useful it would be to debate today. It's like discussing a
>>> >>>>> questionable action taken by Janet Reno while she worked for Bill
>>> >>>>> Clinton. Anyone personally affected would find it relevant, but
>>> >>>>> society
>>> >>>>> as a whole wouldn't be interested today.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Sometimes the bad guys get away with it. Usually when the good guys
>>> >>>>> don't stand up to them until its too late. But that takes me off on
>>> >>>>> my
>>> >>>>> own tangent.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Joseph - KF7QZC
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 03:53:02PM -0500, Bryan Schulz wrote:
>>> >>>>>> hi,
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> there should be at least one more.
>>> >>>>>> #16. Don't ask tough questions even when a member does something
>>> >>>>>> questionable and probably illegal.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum"
>>> >>>>>> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com>
>>> >>>>>> To: "NABS list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "Blind Talk list"
>>> >>>>>> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>; "Gary Legates" <gary.legates at comcast.net>
>>> >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:02 PM
>>> >>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] a great article
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> As I try to learn more about both organizations, I have subscribed
>>> >>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>> both the Braille Monitor and the Braille Forum. The Monitor, as
>>> >>>>>>> you
>>> >>>>>>> know, is the Federation (NFB's) publication and the Forum is the
>>> >>>>>>> Council (or ACB's) publication. I found a great article in July's
>>> >>>>>>> Forum entitled "Fifteen Ways to Maximize your ACB Membership,"
>>> >>>>>>> giving
>>> >>>>>>> fifteen tips on how to take advantage of all ACB (or any
>>> >>>>>>> organization,
>>> >>>>>>> for that matter) has to offer. I think this could also apply to
>>> >>>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>>> Federation and to NABS or any other special-interest division, and
>>> >>>>>>> is
>>> >>>>>>> some good advice. To be accurate, I added "or NFB" in parentheses
>>> >>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>> some parts of the article. I have pasted the article below. Any
>>> >>>>>>> thoughts on this? I promise I'm not trying to force the ACB down
>>> >>>>>>> your
>>> >>>>>>> throats; in fact, I'm a Federationist in nature, but want to learn
>>> >>>>>>> about both. Here is the article.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> 15 WAYS TO MAXIMIZE YOUR ACB (or NFB) MEMBERSHIP
>>> >>>>>>> by Kenneth Semien Sr.
>>> >>>>>>> All too often, people join organizations without taking
>>> >>>>>>> advantage of the opportunity to truly know intricate details of
>>> >>>>>>> its
>>> >>>>>>> purpose,
>>> >>>>>>> mission, and operating practices. This can very well result in a
>>> >>>>>>> lack
>>> >>>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>>> participation and could ultimately result in a decision to forfeit
>>> >>>>>>> what
>>> >>>>>>> could have been the ideal vehicle to enhance your life, build
>>> >>>>>>> great
>>> >>>>>>> relationships and effectively share personal skills and abilities
>>> >>>>>>> that
>>> >>>>>>> can
>>> >>>>>>> make an enormous difference. In an effort to encourage you to
>>> >>>>>>> explore
>>> >>>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>>> meaningful efforts of ACB, I have included the tips listed below
>>> >>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>> assist
>>> >>>>>>> you in being all you can be and help you join with others whose
>>> >>>>>>> skills
>>> >>>>>>> complement yours.
>>> >>>>>>> 1. Be inquisitive and don't hesitate to ask questions.
>>> >>>>>>> 2. Become familiar with the history, mission, and purpose by
>>> >>>>>>> reviewing it often enough to be able to repeat it to others. In
>>> >>>>>>> turn
>>> >>>>>>> someone may realize that this is the organization they have been
>>> >>>>>>> looking
>>> >>>>>>> for.
>>> >>>>>>> 3. Make a personal commitment to identify ways to get involved.
>>> >>>>>>> 4. Find out who the officers are and become acquainted with
>>> >>>>>>> them and their roles and responsibilities, as well as members you
>>> >>>>>>> observe
>>> >>>>>>> actively participating in events and projects associated with our
>>> >>>>>>> organization.
>>> >>>>>>> 5. Make your skills and abilities known to leaders of your
>>> >>>>>>> chapter, affiliate, or the president of our organization.
>>> >>>>>>> 6. Make every effort to participate in chapter, state affiliate
>>> >>>>>>> and national meetings, seminars, conferences and conventions.
>>> >>>>>>> 7. Inquire about available committees you may be able to serve
>>> >>>>>>> on to assist the organization in achieving its goals and
>>> >>>>>>> objectives.
>>> >>>>>>> Seek
>>> >>>>>>> to join committees that allow you to utilize your skills and
>>> >>>>>>> abilities
>>> >>>>>>> in
>>> >>>>>>> the most effective and efficient manner.
>>> >>>>>>> 8. If you have access to the Internet, sign up for up-to-date
>>> >>>>>>> news and announcements from all levels of our organization. Ask a
>>> >>>>>>> president
>>> >>>>>>> or member to tell you how to take advantage of this option.
>>> >>>>>>> 9. Listen to or read publications/newsletters distributed by our
>>> >>>>>>> organization on all levels. This is one of the best ways to learn
>>> >>>>>>> about
>>> >>>>>>> useful resources, access inspirational stories, scholarships,
>>> >>>>>>> awards,
>>> >>>>>>> and
>>> >>>>>>> upcoming projects and events.
>>> >>>>>>> 10. Identify special-interest groups that meet your personal
>>> >>>>>>> needs. These groups provide you the opportunity to network with
>>> >>>>>>> others
>>> >>>>>>> sharing common interests, such as your prior or current
>>> >>>>>>> occupation,
>>> >>>>>>> hobbies,
>>> >>>>>>> health concerns and so much more.
>>> >>>>>>> 11. Obtain your own copy of the constitution and bylaws to learn
>>> >>>>>>> of the agreed-upon operating practices and procedures of our
>>> >>>>>>> organization.
>>> >>>>>>> 12. Prepare for future involvement as an officer by becoming
>>> >>>>>>> familiar with officer titles and duties.
>>> >>>>>>> 13. Participate in conference calls to build your knowledge,
>>> >>>>>>> such as membership focus calls, periodic Office Hours conference
>>> >>>>>>> calls
>>> >>>>>>> with
>>> >>>>>>> the ACB president, committee calls, and special-interest group
>>> >>>>>>> calls.
>>> >>>>>>> 14. Explore the web sites of your chapter, state affiliate and
>>> >>>>>>> our national organization. You may locate information on the web
>>> >>>>>>> site
>>> >>>>>>> that
>>> >>>>>>> you didn't think of inquiring about.
>>> >>>>>>> 15. Pay your annual dues faithfully and encourage others to do
>>> >>>>>>> the same.
>>> >>>>>>> The more you know and the more you become involved, the more you
>>> >>>>>>> will begin to know that you have joined a phenomenal organization
>>> >>>>>>> that
>>> >>>>>>> is
>>> >>>>>>> continuing to grow. Have a great ACB (or NFB) adventure!
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The
>>> >>>>>>> real
>>> >>>>>>> problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists.
>>> >>>>>>> If
>>> >>>>>>> a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness
>>> >>>>>>> can
>>> >>>>>>> be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan
>>> >>>>>>> (President
>>> >>
>>> >>>>>>> of the National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986.)
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Visit the I C.A.N. Foundation online at: www.icanfoundation.info
>>> >>>>>>> for
>>> >>>>>>> information on our foundation and how it helps blind and visually
>>> >>>>>>> impaired children in MD say "I can!"
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my BrailleNote
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> >>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> >>>>>>> for
>>> >>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40s
>>> > b
>>> >> cglobal.net
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> > h
>>> >> %40gmail.com
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>> blindtlk mailing list
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>>> > g
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>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
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